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Leaks Kerry 09/24/92 ...as Chairman, I feel very, very strongly that I do not want this Committee's efforts to be sullied by personal agenda, or by people who want to be reckless with partial facts. Leaks Kissinger 09/22/92 Mr. Chairman, this is the record. Yet leaks from this inquiry have been suggesting: That those who had refused to abandon America's Vietnamese allies, supposedly abandoned American prisoners; that those who struggled to husband the leverage necessary to bring about the release of American prisoners were insufficiently attentive to the fates of remaining MIAs; and that those who were prepared to use force to compel Hanoi's compliance were guilty of not doing enough to enforce the agreements. Leaks Smith 09/24/92 After reading the column and communicating with Senator Kerry, I wondered whether I was at the same meeting. Left Behind - Shields Statement Kerry 09/24/92 Lieutenant Commander Vincent D. Monroe, downed in Ne On Province, North Vietnam, May 18th, 1968. Emergency radio signals were received from Lieutenant Commander Monroe and his crew member, whose status as a prisoner has been acknowledged by North Vietnam. Radio Hanoi announced the capture of two pilots at the time and the place of Lieutenant Commander Monroe's loss. Now you called him a prisoner. They acknowledged his as a prisoner. You stood up and said he was a prisoner. He did not come home, and then you say there are no indications anybody is alive. Left Behind Sieverts continued 06/25/92 against their will in captivity -- the lengths they would go, one way or another, to let us know of this. It bears on the photographs, for example. The idea of Americans cheerfully being photographed and not using that opportunity to somehow convey who they are and what the circumstances are is beyond my imagination. Lists Kerry 09/21/92 Getting the list before the agreement...the idea would be compare the lists and make some detailed man- by-man attempt to determine whether or not their list tracked with our list. That was not done...it was agreed in 1971 that it would not be done. And all of the testimony that we heard earlier from Secretary Laird saying I was at Henry all the time trying to get him to make sure it did not happen, that deal was cut in 1971. There was no effort, apparently, from the meeting in 1972, no effort to say to the North Vietnamese, this is unacceptable. It was accepted as a condition because it had been prenegotiated in 1971. Lists Kissinger 09/22/92 Chairman Kerry: Your response to that was, we could exchange lists of the prisoners that we hold and then start exchanging prisoners and not haggle about who is or is not a prisoner. Kissinger: So this phrase of not haggling was -- had only to do with the technical problem. Do we present our list first and wait, or do we see what they give us and then complain about it.

Chairman Kerry: ...in effect, you moved the haggling. Instead of haggling name for name before the signing, you left yourself haggling name for name until 20 years later and we are haggling name for name today.

Kissinger: Senator, we would have been delighted to get their lists before the signing. That was something that they were never prepared to do, and we, therefore, had to make the best arrangement possible. Lists Laird 09/21/92 Chairman Kerry: It was your gut feeling that the lists were not complete, is that what you are saying?

Laird: It was my gut feeling that there were more. When I left, I think that we felt at that time -- I think the last figures that we had were that the list of POWs probably would contain quite a few more names than that. We were disappointed with the list because I hoped that there would be more on the list. Lists Laird 09/21/92 We weren't -- by the way, I wasn't being critical of the Kennedy list or the Cora Weiss list. We were glad to get that information, but it was not complete information and we knew of the existence of other POWs when those lists were delivered to us... Lists Laird 09/21/92 We were not getting much information from the Vietnamese at that particular time. The Vietnamese, of course, made the Kennedy list, the North Vietnamese. The source of that list was the North Vietnamese and the Cora Weiss list was also from the North Vietnamese. And they were confirmations of POWs. Lists Laird 09/21/92 We had several lists given to us. There was the early list that was given by Cora Weiss, which I think you are familiar with, who was a peace activist. Then the Kennedy list came, and there was a discrepancy between the Cora Weiss list and the Kennedy list. It was about five difference in those two lists. I felt that those lists were inadequate. We had firm letter confirmations of at least 26 or 27 people that we knew of confirmed by letters that were alive at that particular time. Lists Lord 09/21/92 Chairman Kerry: ...It appears to me... that we had agreed on the 16th of August 1971 that there was only, in regard to POW, going to be an exchange of lists at the moment that we all signed the agreements. And the question that I have got is were you aware that the Secretary of Defense and others in the defense agencies were arguing that we should get a preliminary release, and if so, why was it not more forcefully presented at this meeting?

Lord: ...we did whittle down our positions, no question about it. I didn't recall the precise date and meeting until I read this document. As I say, I do not recall others pressing us to get the lists ahead of time, but it would be a natural objective that you would to have certainly be better than getting it the day of the agreement. Lists Mooney 01/22/92 My testimony, sir, is that I had a list of Americans who were captured alive in enemy hands with our knowledge of the specific units of those enemies down to battalion, division or regiment, or up to division or higher than division, and that the last information was that they were alive and well in enemy hands... there were approximately 305 on the list. At Homecoming I, about five percent of those were returned. That brought the list down to about 293, 294. Now, what I have recovered of the names that were on that original list is approximately 140 or maybe 120 names... Lists Mooney 01/22/92 ...looking back on it... we should have known better, and maybe if we would have pushed a little harder when we had the power and authority, we might have been able to do something. But in '73, we should have at least insisted on getting that original list of 15 or 16 names up in print, which we had flagged kiddingly as the Kissinger list. Lists Mooney 01/22/92 . . . the political requirements of the Vietnamese were higher than the tactical and strategic. They wanted warm bodies to jack up the numbers to appease Kissinger. Lists Mooney 01/22/92 My boss... told me to my face... that if you're going to put it on a list, we want to be able to sign it, and we want to be able for the policy-makers to be able to do something with it. So keep it tight... If I hadn't kept it tight, per his instruction, my list could probably have been another 60 to 70 names. Lists Shields 06/25/92 Another significant list is the one passed by the DRV to representatives of the U.S. Government in Paris in January, 1973 as required by the Paris Peace Accords. Lists Shields 06/25/92 This list was not accepted by us as a complete accounting for those held prisoner or for those who died in captivity. First, that list did not include the names of those prisoners missing in Laos. It also omitted the names of men we knew to have been in captivity at one time. Lists Shields 06/25/92 We knew immediately upon receiving this list of those said to have died in captivity, that men whom we knew had, at one time, been alive and in captivity were omitted from the list altogether. After briefing those who returned, we knew also that the names of some men who may have died in captivity were also not on the lists. Lists Smith 09/24/92 for several weeks before the signing of the accords in January of 1973, General Eugene Tighe...was asked by the Joint Chiefs to make a list of American POWs that we could reasonably expect to be repatriated both from Laos and Vietnam. The list contained some 900 to 1,000 names yet... Lists Tighe 06/24/92 I certainly remember the shock and sadness at the paucity of the lists of names we received versus what we expected. Lists Walters 09/21/92 Sen. Grassley: General Walters, do you ever recall it being discussed that we should exchange lists prior to the signing of any agreement?

Walters: Yes, I believe there was a discussion to that... But it seems to me that was discussed and they, of course, knew this is one of the principal leverages they had with us. They knew that our desire to get those prisoners of war back was inordinate compared to theirs... but what I suspected is that they wouldn't have carried out the agreement and my suspicions were not totally ill-founded. Live Americans Andrews 10/15/92 I acknowledge that there have been isolated reports POWs being held in some areas in Laos, including Sam Neua. But after giving these reports, most of which come from refugee sources, a full and complete evaluation, the Department has been unable to develop convincing evidence that U.S. POWs are being held in Sam Neua today, nor do we have any evidence that they were being held there in 1988. Live Americans Armitage 08/12/92 I think what I'd say is I believe there are Americans in Indochina. Live Sighting Bell 12/04/92 Bell: Sir, could I make one point on the underground facility there?

Chairman Kerry: Yes, sir.

Bell: The Bai Nim Conference Hall sits across from the Mausoleum as you know from being there. And they have the meetings there of the Politburo and the Central Committee. Also the Party Congress is held there. And you have high level dignitaries there. They would have to have some type of underground facility in the area to contain all of those people in the event of an emergency... Live Americans Brooks 12/01/92 ...I found no compelling evidence of alive POWs held in the official prison system of the North Vietnamese... I was persuaded that there was, indeed, compelling evidence that in 1973... to cause me to believe that there probably were people alive in 1973 in Laos. Live Americans Cawthorne 11/07/91 I think if one looks at the evidence, piece by piece, one doesn't get anywhere. You don't see the wood for the trees... it's a seamless, carpet of evidence that comes from during the war and beyond. Live Americans Chagnon 10/15/92 Chairman Kerry: At any rate, in your years, no one has ever come to you with a secret key and offered or whispered to you that up here there are some Americans. You have never hear that. Nobody has ever --

Chagnon: Only the incidents that Roger [Rumpf] mentioned in Vientiane, which were very much second-hand stories and which we turned over all information to the U.S. Embassy. And those did not prove to be valid. Live Americans Childress 08/12/92 ...I believe there's a possibility of Americans in Southeast Asia in some category that is not defined. Live Americans Christmas 06/25/92 Sen. Reid: Do any of you know of any American servicemen in Southeast Asia, like Garwood, who are still there?

Sheetz: I do not. And when I met with Vietnamese officials last summer I asked the same question, as does Vessey, as does Christmas, and I'll let him speak for himself.

Christmas: I have no personal knowledge, sir, that we have any there.

Sen. Reid: You have no personal knowledge. Do you have any reports, any hearsay information that they are there?

Christmas: Sir, we have live- sighting reports that we continue to pursue. But we have, at this time, no sufficient information to say that we have a live American in Vietnam or anyplace.

However, and I would be the first to tell you this, we don't have sufficient information yet to say that there isn't, and that's why we will pursue any continue to pursue these live-sighting investigations, the last known discrepancy cases, and through our efforts expand throughout those three countries. Live Americans Christmas 06/25/92 Vice Chairman Smith: ... with the job that you have to do and the importance of the job that you have to do, it seems to me to be somewhat like going to a baseball player and saying now, Smith, you are going out and you are going to play first base -- which I used to do -- and you will be batting third. Now Smith goes out and plays first base. He does not bring his glove because he is not going to get any ground balls and he does not take his bat up to the plate because he is not going to get a pitch...

I think the fact that there are live- sighting reports out there, whether you believe them or not, but the fact that they are there indicates that they have to be pursued...

Christmas: It does not mean that I don't believe that live-sighting report, and we pursue each and every one of those live-sighting reports. Unfortunately, all of them to this point in time have shown that -- at this time, we have not been able to determine that there have been live Americans. Live Americans Christmas 11/05/91 If we find out the location of Captain Carr or anybody else, there is no doubt in my mind ...we'll go get him. If he can't get out, we'll go get him. Live Americans Christmas 12/04/92 I would echo that, sir. I would also state, however, that as you've indicated, Senator, we pursue every lead. We do not leave any stone unturned, and we have in position the operational plans to recover Americans if, in fact, we should find one. Live Americans DeStatte, Deeter, Bell 12/04/92 Chairman Kerry: Mr. Gadoury, as to Laos. Do you currently operate with any intelligence or evaluation that suggests to you that someone is alive? Is there any credible evidence that says so?

Gadoury: Not that I have seen, sir.

Chairman Kerry: As to Indochina?

DeStatte: That's correct, sir.

Chairman Kerry: And you say no.

DeStatte: No.

Chairman Kerry: Mr. Deeter, Sergeant Deeter?

Deeter: No, sir.

Chairman Kerry: Mr. Bell?

Bell: No, sir. Live Americans DeStatte 08/05/92 We shouldn't forget that those 300- plus sources who accurately described Robert Garwood, encounters with Robert Garwood there, also said that they had no knowledge, personal or hearsay, of any other Americans living or being detained in that area, and if these folks were acknowledged reporting accurate on that, why should we question their accuracy on the other? Live Americans Gadoury 10/15/92 After eight years of searching neither I, nor... personnel from various other military units... have found proof that any of our missing survived after the prisoner release from Hanoi in 1973.

Yet, as long as the possibility exists that there could have been or could still be, we must continue the search. Live Americans Grassley 06/24/92 Evidence exists, and the next time that someone in the Administration says that there in no evidence that we left people behind, it is clear that he or she is not reading the same documents that the members of this Committee and our respective staffs are reading. Live Americans Jensen- Stevenson 11/07/91 There is an amazing amount of credible evidence, [that Americans are alive in Southeast Asia]. Live Americans Kerry 06/25/92 The evidence, to me, is still as likely that there might be fraud as that there is evidence of a prisoner. Live Americans Kingston 06/25/92 The JCRC work did not include investigating the possibility that live Americans remaining in captivity against their will in Southeast Asia after Operation Homecoming. Live Americans Kissinger 09/22/92 . . . why they would hold prisoners that they don't acknowledge, for that I have great difficulty understanding it. Live Americans Kissinger 09/22/92 I think it's improbable that any are alive today. I honestly did not think there were any alive in Vietnam when the war ended. I have always kept open the possibility in my mind that there were some -- that there were some in Laos. Live Americans Larson 12/04/92 Mr. Chairman, I have seen no piece of evidence at this point that would indicate anyone is alive from any of our researches, investigations, surveys, or any of the data that we have available. Live Americans Larson 12/04/92 Admiral Larson: ...in this last year, we have resolved 143 live-sighting cases.

Chairman Kerry: Has any one of those live sighting cases given an indication of either a live American, or that there was a live American there?

Larson: No, sir... Live Americans Maguire 08/04/92 We conclude with the following assessment. After years of post-war searching, thousands of reports evaluated, and every available means of intelligence collection employed, no single report or combination of reports has ever been able to confirm that American prisoners of war remained in captivity after Operation Homecoming in 1973. Live Americans Needham 12/04/92 Sir, I agree. I would add, it is our number 1 mission, looking for live sightings in support of the DIA effort. We react to every single one of them. Live Americans Rumpf/ Chagnon 10/15/92 Chairman Kerry: ...what do you believe is the possibility that somebody is being held?

Mr. Rumpf: ...if they were living as local people were living, life would be very difficult...A 10-year period would be very difficult.

Chairman Kerry: Do you agree with that, Ms. Chagnon?

Ms. Chagnon: Yes... Live Americans Rumpf 10/15/92 Mr. Rumpf: I talked to a very few people about the issue of live POWs being held by the Government. And in each occasion people said there were no Americans being held in Laos. But it was not an issue that came up regularly. People did not raise the issue until late in our stay there in 1989 and '90 when people started coming to our house in Vientiane claiming they had tapes, fingerprints, bringing us sometimes those kinds of materials, expecting some money in return. And that's the only time people really came up to us.

Chairman Kerry: Did they ask you for money, specifically?

Mr. Rumpf: Yeah, it was implied in the discussion that they expected something from it. We only said we'd take it and give it to the U.S. Embassy. Live Americans Schiff 08/04/92 ...the U.S. Government position is, while there is no information to confirm that Americans are still detained in Southeast Asia, the possibility cannot be ruled out. Because the U.S. Government cannot rule out the possibility, the Department of Defense continues to aggressively investigate this issue... Live Americans Schlatter 12/01/92 Sir, the evidence that I saw over, again, the period of time I worked in the office leads me to two conclusions. I think the evidence supports the contention that if you were an American prisoner of war and you were alive in the spring of 1973, the time of Operation Homecoming, you came home. The second conclusion I have to reach is that only the Vietnamese know for sure. Live Americans Schlesinger 09/21/92 I believe those prospects would be very slim, Mr. Chairman, as of now. But it's conceivable that one or two may have survived. One or two, or a handful. Live Americans Schweitzer 12/04/92 Chairman Kerry: But we do have people come to people. I mean, we have the reports. We have got them laid out. These guys spend hours analyzing them. They go through them. You are aware of that, correct?

Schweitzer: Yes, and that has to be done. That is a valuable process, and for the American people that must be done. And it is the work of the analysts and the investigators, and it is a valuable process that must be gone through. And I do not in any way want to detract from the dedication and the hard work all of these men do.

Chairman Kerry: Well, what makes you come to that judgment? What is sort of the basis of your judgment nobody is alive?

Schweitzer: Well, I have never seen any evidence or heard any evidence that anyone is alive in Vietnam. Live Americans Schweitzer 12/04/92 Chairman Kerry: ...you are speaking from archival experience, and a reality base that a lot of people do not have. ... you have drawn a conclusion here that is pretty solid in your mind, and you have laid it out to the committee that you think this concept of focus on live people is a waste of time, in your estimation.

What gives you this basis that you draw this notion that nobody is alive? Is that a fair statement of your notion? You think this concept of anybody being alive is wrong, is that correct?

Schweitzer: Sir, I've seen no evidence that there are live Americans in Vietnam. Live Americans Sheetz 08/04/92 Chairman Kerry: Do you interpret any of the live-sighting reports that you have in front of you today as evidence that an American is alive inside Southeast Asia today?

Mr. Sheetz: That kind of clear-cut statement I cannot make, and I don't think there's a Member on this committee who can make such a statement. We have 110 reports. It was 109 when I last briefed you and there's been a new one come in. We have 110 reports right now that are in active inventory, and as we go into the areas where those 110 reports are located, we take a look at other reporting that's in that same geographic area.

Until we run those to ground, I can't tell you. That's not a cop-out. I cannot tell you... Live Americans Smith I might say in some respectful disagreement with the Chairman, there is information and evidence before the Committee on specific individuals. The question is, is that information valid, and that is what we are trying to determine. Live Americans Smith 10/15/92 In view of the information put forward at our September hearings that we had expected more POWs/MIAs to come home in 1973, it is incumbent upon the Committee to treat the information before us today, I believe, with the assumption that American pilots from the war could still be alive and held against their will somewhere in communist hands in Laos and Vietnam. Live Americans Sydow 08/05/92 Chairman Kerry: ...Out of those several thousand, apart from Bob Garwood and apart from the Caucasians who were not American POWs, are there reports in which you place credibility of American POWs being held?

Mr. Sydow: No sir. There is no evidence of POWs being held in this system. Live Americans Sydow, Sheetz, Cole 12/04/92 Chairman Kerry: Now, let me ask each of you the relevant question as to your countries or areas. Mr. Sydow, Laos.

Sydow: No, sir, Vietnam.

Chairman Kerry: Just Vietnam. Do you have any credible evidence today, which you are operating on or working with, that someone is alive in Vietnam, a prisoner?

Sydow: No, sir.

Chairman Kerry: Mr. Sheetz?

Sheetz: No, sir.

Chairman Kerry: Colonel Cole?

Cole: No, sir. Live Americans Tin 11/07/91 About this issue, I can say that I know as well as any top leader in Vietnam and, in my opinion, I state categorically that there is not any American prisoner alive in Vietnam. Live Americans Vessey 12/04/92 It is almost beyond the realm of comprehension for me to figure out how the Vietnamese leadership can say after X number of years that they have no one and then say now we do and we'll do it for X million or billion or whatever it happens to be. Live Americans Vessey 12/04/92 Now, I will tell you that based on what we've learned over the five years I've been involved, I think the probability of anyone being alive is far lower than I would have given that probability five years ago. But I'm not going to say I don't believe there's not anyone alive. I think the probability is very, very low, but certainly it exists. The probability exists. Live Americans -Offers Vessey 06/25/92 Sen. McCain: You have never heard of any offer on the part of anyone in authority in Vietnam to return Americans in return for money or assistance?

Vessey: Absolutely not. In fact, just the contrary. The Vietnamese officials with whom I've dealt have said we cannot so it, whatever you were to offer. We cannot do it because we do not have any [Americans]. Live-Sighting Reports Bell 12/04/92 Vice Chairman Smith: Are you not talking about the area around the Mausoleum, Mr. Bell?

Bell: I'm talking about the Bai Nim Conference Hall, right across the street from the Mausoleum, sir.

Chairman Kerry: It is actually about 500 yards away, is it not? It is not right across the street. There is a huge expanse. Live-Sighting Reports Bell 12/04/92 The two morticians or technical specialists that the ambassador referred to, I believe in early last year was reduced down to one person. He resided in the house across from the Mausoleum on the corner of Chuma Ho Street next to the compound of the Soviet GRU.

In May of 1991, this gentleman was soaked with gasoline on the streets of Hanoi and burned to death. And the only facility or information about that facility that I have heard was that it was built on the same order of Lenin's Tomb and there is an elevator that goes down one floor beneath the mausoleum. And the advisors that came there, they used the same plan to construct Ho Chi Minh's mausoleum.

Concerning any tunnels in the citadel area or the military compound, previous reporting indicates that there was or probably still is a tunnel which went from Cua Dum Street under Ly Nam De and inside of the Ly Nam De compound. And this tunnel was constructed back during the French era. Live-Sighting Reports Chambers 12/04/92 Chairman Kerry: OK. How many of these are firsthand up here? How many of those flags are first-hand [reports]?... what you have is 920 -- 928 minus about 200 that you say are fabrications. That leaves you 728. You have 225 that are first-hand, leaving you with about 500 that are hearsay. 225 firsthand.

Chambers: And the hearsay is probably where the heart of this issue is at. And the reason that there is what we find is a problem with this is that in addition to the use of --

Chairman Kerry: 700 hearsay total. OK, go ahead.

Chambers: -- Some basic geographic flaws in the map where some of the reports were plotted in the wrong area, and I think we went through this in closed session and again in open session earlier.

There's a misunderstanding about the nature and the use of hearsay reporting. Hearsay reporting goes from accurate renditions of what actually happened that someone told their brother or their sister and they repeated and it's very accurate to something that you heard, someone else said it to someone, and by the time it is repeated to one of the investigators you can't figure out what it is that they were really talking about. And it's marketplace trivia that people pass back and forth amongst themselves. Live-Sighting Reports DeStatte 12/04/92 There's one other point that I'd like to bring out. In the statement released here on the 1st December, there was a quote of the Russian ambassador, and I quote from that one December statement: "We have also heard from the Russian ambassador that there is a restricted underground area beneath the Ho Chi Minh Mausoleum."

This quotation is taken out of its original context. The original context was a partial transcript of a briefing by Russian ambassador Rashid Camadolin to two journalists in Hanoi on 15 August, 1992. The following is an accurate text of the ambassador's statement in context:

"There is an underground area beneath the mausoleum. It is restricted. There is a lot of equipment, a cooling device. When we built that, we put in a triple generator system in case of an electricity black-out."

Now, the ambassador also stated that Russian experts helped build the Mausoleum, and that two Russian experts are at the Mausoleum at the request of the Vietnamese Government to preserve the body of Ho Chi Minh. He said these Russian experts would have known if any U.S. POWs were detained at the Mausoleum.

The ambassador said he's never heard of any prisoners at the Mausoleum. In fact, he scoffed at the idea that anyone could imagine Vietnam could hold prisoners here. He said he has spoken with many Americans about this subject, and he noted, and I quote, "those who are serious, who are not playing politics, who are not playing on the emotions of the families, they know these stories are not true..." Live-Sighting Reports DeStatte 12/04/92 ...a BBC radio interview with Ambassador Camadolin in which the ambassador stated he was, quote, sure there is no so-called underground prison here in the center of the city, and above all, beneath the Mausoleum, close quote. Live-Sighting Reports Gadoury 10/15/92 Chairman Kerry: And have any of them given you a lead that you have been able to follow that you have considered real or found to be real with respect to an American being alive?

Mr. Gadoury: In my recollection, in all the people that I talked to, there were three people who provided information, first-hand live sighting information, of what they said were American prisoners or people being held against their will. In two of those cases, I participated in follow up interviews and even polygraph exams, and neither of the first two individuals were determined to be presenting truthful information. In fact, there was indications of -- ...Deception in each case. In the third case, the Stony Beach office followed up, and I understand that in that case it was determined that there was no substance to the individual's report. Live-Sighting Reports Haig 09/21/92 Vice Chairman Smith: ...we get into these definitions of hard evidence, and iron-clad evidence, and evidence... we have got hundreds of live-sighting reports that have not been all debunked. We have got some other types of intelligence which we will be getting into in a couple of weeks...

...where is the proof that the men we did know were alive are dead? Where is that proof? Why do you not put the same burden on that?... where are they?

Haig: Well, the same suspicion I have put on another foot. And that is that the enemy that we fought cared nothing about the lives of human beings, including their own. And I saw it on the battlefield, as you did. Live-Sighting Reports Maguire 08/04/92 ...So far, the largest body of post- war intelligence about missing Americans is refugee source reporting...Over 15,000 source reports have been received since 1975, and that number grows every day...To date, we have received almost 1,600 first-hand reports. DIA evaluates these reports and our results are reviewed by an independent channel made up of representatives from other U.S. intelligence agencies. Live-Sighting Reports Maguire 08/04/92 ...As of today, over 100 reports are still under active investigation, as we've just discussed...In Vietnam, hearsay reports account for about half of all live-sighting reports, and they tend to echo the details and descriptions of actual firsthand reports. However, in Laos, hearsay reports account for almost 80 percent of the live-sighting reports, and in many instances they are vague in detail. Live-Sighting Reports Mooney 01/22/92 Sighting reports, stand-alone sighting reports are essentially worthless unless they are cumulative. They beggar more questions and you can argue about them all day long. Live-Sighting Reports Schiff 08/04/92 ...In 1979, we received information from a source who said he saw 50 U.S. prisoners of war between 1973 and '78, while he was held in Quyet Tien re-education camp near the Chinese border.

Reports like this one, where sources describe seeing POWs with their own eyes, are categorized as first-hand live sightings. They receive our highest priority for investigation. We used all-source analysis to investigate this report. We looked at photography to locate the camp in the area the source described, and we found it.

However, the photography showed that during the time the source said he saw U.S. POWs in this camp, the gates were wide open... However, to be certain that no POWs had ever been held in this camp, we located some former inmates to ask if they knew of any Americans held there. These people all denied that any Americans had ever been held in this camp... Live-Sighting Reports Schiff 08/04/92 Each of the former inmates that we had located from the camp provided accurate sketches, one of which you see here. In fact, the only person whose sketch of the camp was not accurate was the original source who claimed that he saw 50 U.S. prisoners of war in the camp.

The moral of the story is this. Relying only one source of information would have led us to believe that there were U.S. prisoners of war in the camp. Taking a multiple source approach convinced us that this was obviously not the case... Live-Sighting Reports Schiff 08/04/92 ...the U.S. Government's intelligence collection capability on the POW/MIA issue is continually being improved. Live-Sighting Reports Schiff 08/04/92 ...as the U.S. Government's expert on Indochinese prison systems, we routinely study the handling of all foreign prisoners in order to gain insight on how U.S. prisoners of war might be handled... The point here is that within a few weeks of the time a Westerner showed up in a maximum security prison in Indochina, we knew he was there. Live-Sighting Reports Schlatter 12/01/92 ...judgments of a source are a fundamental part of intelligence analysis. And the fact that some sources are weighed and found wanting is not an indictment of the analytic process or of the analyst; it is a fact of life. Live-Sighting Reports Schlatter 12/01/92 It's a fact of life that you encounter people who either make up a story or who really are telling you the truth, but they don't have a clear view of what they're saying and they embellish a little bit, or you have people who simply come forward with a very straightforward story. Live-Sighting Reports Schlatter 12/01/92 The charge is made that we believe everybody is lying. We do not. Demonstrably, seven out of 10 or more of the people who talk to us are telling us the truth.

I found a lot of frustration. I was frustrated every day I went into that office and every day I left, and I am still frustrated 2 1/2 years out of it. But to then take the leap from frustration to saying you knowingly and willingly turned your back on a valid report of a man that you could have rescued is absurd. And that is why I am so hard over on denying or declaring the invalidity of the mindset to debunk. Because that is where I found that argument to lead. Live-Sighting Reports Schweitzer 12/04/92 Chairman Kerry: Well, what do you say to the live-sighting report process? Here we are. We get live- sighting reports. People come in and say, I saw an American. What do we do?

Schweitzer: I've never heard one, sir.

Chairman Kerry: You have never had somebody come to you?

Schweitzer: No, sir. Live-Sighting Reports Sheetz 08/04/92 ...because the initial contact with that source -- our field collector was not privy to all the information have about a particular geographic area in Vietnam, may not be aware of all the subtleties surrounding that report, we've got to go back to the source in some circumstances to sharpen up the original reporting. We do that through what we call a source-directed requirement, or SDR. It takes a couple of months for that process to work.

I guess we balance off the need for thoroughness and completeness and accuracy against the risk that we would take in going off half-cocked with half-developed or poorly developed information in a live- sighting report. Live-Sighting Reports Sheetz 12/04/92 Chairman Kerry: But as a ready pool of sort of information, here you have boat people. These are people who hated the government. They risked their lives, they got into boats, they went out into the South China Sea, they were escaping communism, escaping the country, they had a reason to hate it and foul it up. And yet thousands upon thousands of them said they had never seen anything, is that correct?

Sheetz: Yes, sir.

Chairman Kerry: Now, is that as relevant as a counterbalance in terms of proving a negative, if we are working with statistics, as people who say they did see something as a hearsay?

Sheetz: In fact... one of the techniques we use when we deal with this bogus reporting coming out of reeducation camps. When we've got 200 and 300 inmates who were there who said that they never saw any Americans and then suddenly somebody appears who was there at the same time that says, you know, there were 50 Americans in this facility.

So you have to -- it's not enough just to take individual reports and throw them up on the map. You've got to look at them in the context of all that you know. This is another way of talking about doing all-source analysis. You know, evaluating each report in terms of what you know about the area and how that report fits in. Live-Sighting Reports Sheetz 12/01/92 Things are on track, things are moving ahead with regard to those investigations. But the results are not all in yet. Live-Sighting Reports Sheetz 08/04/92 Chairman Kerry: ...given the nature of prioritization and the increased access in Vietnam, that a live- sighting report rendered in the year 1991 or 1992 would be the highest order of priority and the fastest resolved. Can you help me understand why the bulk of those remain unresolved?

Sheetz: ...before we send those cases out there, we want to get a very quick, thorough analysis of the case, match it up with whatever data we hold in our files, present the live sighting investigator with a complete package to go our into the field with not only information on the particular sighting, but now we're also sending out, along with that sighting package, all other previously closed live-sighting reports and hearsay reports that are in that same immediate geographic area.

We're continually refining the process, I, too, am desirous of having it sped up, but we can only work it as fast as we can get the reports in here, analyze them, and get them back out. Live-Sighting Reports Sheetz 11/15/91 DIA has held all along that the report of the mortician that he saw three Caucasians who were identified to him by another person as probably being Americans -- that report stands, there is validity to that report. . . . I am unaware of any firm, credible evidence that Americans were held against their will after Operation Homecoming. Live-Sighting Reports Sheetz 12/04/92 What I think we were really referring to is the notion that yes, there is a foundation for that rather large structure. And embedded in that foundation, it now turns out there's a couple of generators and some other equipment that's related to the facility. Is that a prison? I think not... Live-Sighting Reports Sheetz 06/25/92 Sen. Reid: Gentlemen, what is the latest live-sighting report that any of you know of? Mr. Sheetz: We receive them all the time. The inventory of --

Sen. Reid: When you say all of the time, it would not be unusual to receive a couple a week?

Mr. Sheetz: Many weeks we could receive two or three or four or more. We have generally an aggressive inventory that we are investigating. Between 80 to 125, and about every 3 months, we hold a review board where representatives of the entire intelligence community plus the State Department and the Joint Staff and OSD come in and listen to our analysts describe what we have been able to do to resolve or otherwise investigate the case.

And cases get closed out at that point, and the inventory drops down to maybe 75 or 80, and then over the next couple of months it will build back up. And we will hold another review board. So it's a very fluid figure. Live-Sighting Reports Sieverts 06/25/92 [Investigating live-sighting reports] remained an active, if not primary then secondary, mission of all the American intelligence agencies to my knowledge right into the mid-Seventies and even to this day. The problem is that the kinds of information that began arriving after '73 were qualitatively different from what was coming in before '73. It's not a question of attitude by analysts, but rather simply the information itself, and it's for that reason that I drew attention to what is, to me, a significant difference.

The absence of that kind of verifying information in which the name or some other detail that... would let you know that this was real.

I have sometimes said that the very large number of sightings themselves raised incredulity. There could not have been as many American prisoners as the live-sighting reports suggest were there. Live-Sighting Reports Sieverts 06/25/92 The very large number of these reports should have triggered caution, since it was clearly improbable that there were ever enough prisoners to correlate with all the alleged sightings. It is noteworthy that in most of these reports no information was provided on the name or names of the people reportedly seen.

While the war was underway, we received reports on captured Americans which often had names associated with them. This was so even if the reports came from indigenous, illiterate people who would render an American name phonetically.... it was the way of validating that information. Among American prisoners we learned so clearly over the years that the exchange of names was the highest priority. Live-Sighting Reports Sieverts 06/25/92 My work with refugees has made me deeply aware of the desperation that these people face and feel. Live-Sighting Reports Tighe 06/24/92 ...the only way you're going to prove all of these things is to go over there at the point that is under discussion, so you can query the local people even or examine the sight of a crash. Live-Sighting Reports Tighe 06/24/92 [In] 70 percent of those reports, analysis that was done in our office said that those individuals told us the truth. Live-Sighting Reports Trowbridge 06/25/92 Sen. Brown: My understanding is that we have hundreds of statements that are sworn statements, where people have passed a polygraph test, indicating there are Americans being held as POWs... That indicates Americans are being held. Now, how do we reconcile that?

Trowbridge: There is information that individuals have indicated that there are prisoners being held. Of that information, we don't have convincing information, or we have none that we have confirmed. Live-Sighting Reports Trowbridge 06/24/92 Right now we have, I believe, 40 unresolved reports that talk about Americans living freely in Vietnam. We do not know who they are.