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Private Groups Duker 12/02/92 Well more times than not it can't be verified, so we have to pass it on as that. This is an article that came through to us and we could not verify it with Government agencies as to whether it was authentic or not. That's how we pass it on. We don't -- we won't say it's authentic if we cannot prove that it is authentic. Private Groups Duker 12/02/92 So it puts us in a position of what is the truth and what isn't. Where else do we have to go to get information but the Government. I mean that's where the answers are, it lies within your committee, it lies within the Department of Defense, the Defense Intelligence Agency. That is the sources that we have. That's where we have to go to try to verify the information that we get, the rumors, the speculation, and so forth. Private Groups Duker 12/02/92 ...there are just absolutely thousands of pieces of information out there that cannot be verified, and so it does make our position difficult in terms of our membership because at times I think they may think we are not pursuing it as actively as we should, but we are. But again, we will not pass on information that we can't verify. Private Groups Eddy 12/02/92 ...the Prisoner of War Committee of Michigan operates as a nonprofit, nonpartisan POW/MIA public awareness organization. The committee's primary source of income comes from the sale of public awareness merchandise. For example, bracelets, pins, t-shirts, and flags, mostly through mail order. The most expensive item we have available for sale are a lined Windbreaker jacket and a 3 by 5 POW/MIA flag, each priced at $30. The least expensive is a small bumper sticker priced at 25 cents apiece...

In addition to the sale of public awareness merchandise, the committee occasionally receives donations from veterans' organizations, concerned citizens, and others who support the work and the objectives of the group. Private Groups Ford 11/15/91 ...the people that really get hurt by this are the families who have these people coming around preying on their uncertainties and their concerns about their loved ones, and it ought to stop. That's one reason we think that this committee is one of the best ideas going, because hopefully we will get to the bottom of this. Private Groups Ford 11/15/91 If I have ever seen a cover-up, this is it. The fact is that what is being covered up, for whatever reason, is that Jack Bailey went to Southeast Asia with our assistance, with our hopes, with our prayers, and came up empty. Private Groups Gadoury 10/15/92 ...in addition to our own governments efforts to search for information about potential American POWs and unaccounted for Americans, there were a number of private American individuals and organizations who were engaged in similar activities, some more extensively and in a more organized fashion than others. Private Groups Gadoury 10/15/92 While we work for a full accounting of our missing and unaccounted for, we should also demand a full accounting from those who have engaged in fabricating information to further their personal or organizational financial goals, and at the same time falsely raising hopes of the American people, especially the families of our missing and unaccounted for. Private Groups Quinn 12/01/92 ...I think the need for some sort of better mechanism to reach out to other organizations, be they veteran's organizations, other POW/MIA, other family organizations, who have often expressed to me and raised the question about why they are so far on the outside when others are on the inside. Private Groups Sampley 11/07/91 The pattern has continued. Rather than focus all available resources on resolving the problem of our missing Vietnam veterans, much of the effort has been directed toward destroying the credibility and/or reputation of the critics. Private Groups Sheridan 12/02/92 The scholarship program that was established in 1970 has become one of the most important activities of the organization. It provides scholarship assistance to the dependents of those uniformed servicemen listed as missing in action or killed in action who were associated with the war in Southeast Asia, as well as those uniformed servicemen missing or killed in action associated with armed conflict through Operation Desert Storm.

Since 1971, when the first three $1,000 grants were given, 613 scholarships totalling over $760,000 have been awarded. This year, 26 students alone were awarded scholarships totalling $100,000...

The Red River Valley Fighter Pilots Association has tax exempt status under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code. We are eligible for contributions from the Combined Federal Campaign under the umbrella of the Independent Charities of America. Other funds are derived through annual membership dues, contributions from the private sector, local chapter fundraising activities, and the generosity of the American public.

We have never used the services of a professional fundraiser. Private Groups Steadman 12/02/92 I provided this committee with a chronological summary of our public efforts at influencing the Government on this issue, but I'd like to just highlight a few of our major efforts.

First, VFW has consistently urged accelerating government-to-government contact with Southeast Asian countries in pursuit of the fullest possible accounting. Second, we have consistently held that it was a legitimate function of our Government and its duty to the families to provide this accounting. Third, the VFW has consistently maintained that maximum economic and diplomatic pressure should be exerted on the Southeast Asian governments to obtain their full cooperation in resolving the fate of our missing men.

Since 1987 the VFW consistently supported public release of more information about our POW/MIAs and since then we have consistently called on the Government to increase its efforts to recover our missing men from the Korean War as well. Finally, with the revelations of Senator Helms and Senator Grassley over a year ago and Colonel Peck's allegations, we have supported a public investigation of the Government's handling of this issue...

Concerning finances, we do not solicit any funds for ourselves or any other organization on the basis of the POW/MIA issue, nor do we use professional consultants as fundraising organizations to do it for us. The VFW supply department sells POW/MIA flags and emblem devices, but the monies derived are quite small in comparison to our overall sales. Private Groups Turner 11/07/91 It was apparent to me that there existed the strong possibility that actions by an agent of the U.S. Government had deliberately killed a viable operation to rescue American prisoners of war, and I wanted to find out what I could about it. Remains Bell 12/04/92 Sen. McCain: Mr. Schweitzer said that there was no American left, there are no warehoused remains...What is your view?

Mr. Bell: My view, sir, is that there certainly was a warehouse in the Hanoi area at one time. The mortician, I think, after he defected in 1979, he testified here in Congress that he processed some 452 remains.

The Vietnamese were confronted with that information. They denied it. They indicated that they thought the mortician was fabricating.

He actually provided about seven different items of information. I think six of those have been verified...

The Vietnamese, I believe, came to the conclusion that we were confident that the man was telling the truth. Since the mortician gave his testimony, they have returned to us approximately 450 remains.

Approximately 260 to 269 remains have now been identified, and what that indicates to me is...that we did have a warehouse but we don't have one now, and what that indicates to me is that they have admitted that the mortician was telling the truth.

They're telling us that we have given you those remains back, and the warehouse here in Hanoi is now empty. Remains Bell 12/04/92 Sen. McCain: I think what you said is a very important point here, and if any of the other witnesses disagree with that, that there is no longer, in the view of the witnesses, a warehouse of remains, but there is in the view of the witnesses remains that still need to be recovered, and that's the job of the previous witnesses, CINCPAC and you, Mr. Bell. Is that accurate?

Mr. Bell: Yes, sir. Remains Bell 12/04/92 Mr. Bell: Rather than concentrate on numbers of cases, prioritized a list where you have leads that can be followed now, regardless of where the case is in the country, and do the cases that have the greatest probability of success first, based on those leads. And, at the same time, have someone working on the development of leads for those cases for which you have no leads.

Chairman Kerry: That seems to make sense.

Mr. Bell: To move the thing forward.

Chairman Kerry: Well, are we not doing that in the context of having put the toughest discrepancy cases in front of them? I mean, General Vessey sat there and put them there.

Mr. Bell: Yes, sir, we have, but we're at a dead end on some of the cases, and unless we come up with some new information, it's pointless to go back and investigate them again.

Chairman Kerry: Are there a number of cases on which we really know the fate of people, but we just do not have the remains?

Mr. Bell: Yes, sir.

Chairman Kerry: So, in effect, we have really resolved some cases, but we do not take them off the list simply because we do not have remains.

Mr. Bell: But there are also some cases where we do not know the fate of the individual and also do not have remains or any possibility of further leads in the case. Remains Childress 08/12/92 ...Vietnam could solve the live prisoner issue by returning their remains. So the key question is, if they're not alive, why is Vietnam not solving it? Remains Christmas 11/05/91 I think that it's unfair to our people in the field to suggest that their primary focus is on remains recovery. We go where the facts lead us as we identify each case and try to follow it through for the fullest possible accounting. If, in fact, the facts lead us to the notion that we can either recover the remains or that we think the Vietnamese or Laotians have those remains, we think it's important as our accounting to the families that we can give them information.... They want them to walk out of the jungle and come home, but they will tell you very quickly that if that can't be the case, please end the uncertainty for me. Give me something that I can put this to rest, I've been with it so long. Remains DeStatte 12/04/92 Mr. DeStatte: First, I doubt that more than a few remains, if any, are in the hands of private citizens in Vietnam. It would be culturally antithetical, as well as illegal.

Chairman Kerry: Well, let me just ask you something. You know, there is intelligence that -- I mean, some people within your own house assert that there are remains being held.

Mr. DeStatte: Yes, sir, I understand that.

Chairman Kerry: You disagree with that completely?

Mr. DeStatte: That's correct. I acknowledge that there may be some instances where private citizens may have remains, but I think that that's rare. I think that we should avoid setting up a mechanism that ultimately is simply a disguised means of paying incentive rewards to private citizens.

I think what we should be doing is providing Vietnam's official organs, such as we are doing with the museums, means by which they can help us find the answers we're looking for and the return of the remains, and rely on -- and also articulate, for Vietnamese leaders, problems as we understand those problems, and rely on Vietnam and Vietnam's leaders to resolve the internal problems of recovering remains; to resolve the internal problems of recovering information and sharing that with us. And I think that's the appropriate approach, myself. Remains Ford 12/04/92 ...I am struck by the fact that the cases that bother me, that gnaw away at me on this issue, is the cases that they should know the most about: the ones where we have the photographs of people on the ground dead in Vietnamese control, the last known alive cases that we've investigated that they had custody of them, based on our joint investigations.

Those are the ones that are not showing up. Now, I can understand, as some have said, that they've lost the coordinates, a bomb went off and when they went back to get them they didn't find them, somebody took them home when they retired as a gold bar, they were going to sell them back to somebody at some time in the future.

I can understand that for, give me a number, 25 percent, 40 percent, but not all of the most likely cases where we know they had control over an American that was dead on the ground. They don't lose them all. Remains Ford 12/04/92 Mr. Ford: ...I remember being told two years ago in Hanoi: There are no archives; we have no archives; why would we not give them to you if we had them? They have been eaten up.

Chairman Kerry: I remember that. Vessey spoke to that, though.

Mr. Ford: But why is that different than the remains? Remains Ford 12/04/92 This is one that I have a nightmare about, and that's that something Carl Ford will say or do to his superiors will give the Vietnamese the impression that they don't have to give us those remains and they destroy them, they get rid of them.

I shuddered when all of the people told the truth as they saw it today, because if the message ever gets to the Vietnamese that the U.S. Government believes they don't have remains we aren't going to get any. And I just can't for the life of me - - I will err on the side of trying to provide the answers for the families as long as I can. That's my bias. Remains Ford 12/01/92 The fact is that every piece of evidence that we have gotten in the breakthrough suggests that they do have far more information than they have provided thus far, that they, in fact, have to explain to us if they do not have the remains, why not. Remains - Excavations Gadoury 12/04/92 Chairman Kerry: What did you pull out of this crash site?

Gadoury: The aircraft involved was an AV/OV-2, which crashed into the side of a mountain. It's scattered over a large area. The exact dimensions were -- I don't recall the exact dimensions, but it was over 100 meters wide, and probably about the same distance going from the bottom of the slope up a 60 degree slope to the top. And there was a wide distribution of wreckage.

As we started going, meticulously following the Identification Laboratory's excavation procedures from the bottom to the top --

Chairman Kerry: So, you literally began to sift through soil, right?

Gadoury: Right.

Chairman Kerry: You would sift through soil, and you would clean it out, and you would find fragments of bone; you would find fragments of teeth.

Gadoury: On this last situation, we were not able to finish the site, but we found over 300 bone fragments, and a number of teeth, and quite a few personal effects and personal equipment. Remains Larson 12/04/92 General Needham said that -- and I do not want to misquote him, but the impression I had is that he believes that there are remains that are known to exist being held by individuals, as well as perhaps local government officials. There is some expectation, of course, that some bounty would be paid for remains. We have made it clear that that is not the policy of the United States. Remains Larson 12/04/92 ...There are remains somewhere, because we have photographs of bodies that they had at one time that we do not have remains for. So there are some that once were available that we do not have, and we don't know where they are. Remains Needham 12/04/92 Sir, the one area that I don't know what to tell you is the answer to the remains. I can give you a scenario that Morrissey was buried in an area and maybe they lost the records. However, we are working with them and we have presented those cases to them. We're going to talk to them more about it next week.

I believe, as Admiral Larson said, they are trying to find a way to get themselves out of this situation, because they are concerned about the laws. They're also concerned about taking remains from individuals and convincing them that they have no chance of getting any money somewhere down the road. Remains Schweitzer 12/04/92 Sen. McCain: Mr. Schweitzer, I asked General Vessey this morning on the issue of the allegation of the warehousing of remains. One, have you seen any evidence of warehousing of remains? And, two, what is your opinion about that theory that there may be several hundred American remains kept somewhere in Hanoi, or somewhere in Vietnam?

Mr. Schweitzer: There is no such warehouse, sir. If, at one point in the '70's or early '80's, if there were some remains somewhere in Hanoi, those remains have by now, as the officials retired who were in the program, as they went back to their provinces, various memorabilia, maybe even remains, have gone back with them. And while there may have been some remains at some point -- I don't know that, but if there were, they are now in private hands.

Sen. McCain: You are absolutely convinced there is no warehouse for the large number of U.S. remains somewhere in Hanoi?

Mr. Schweitzer: Yes, sir. There is no such warehouse. Remains Schweitzer 12/04/92 Mr. Schweitzer: Well, after our meeting I had meetings with the Vietnamese all that day, and into the night... the importance of this historic trip of yours to Vietnam [was stressed], and what could be achieved during this trip.

And I was told to me that they simply have no remains. That if the success or failure of this trip and of establishing relations with the U.S. is dependent upon their turning over the remains they have in their possession, or that is believed they have in their possession, then it's going to fail. They have no remains.

Now, I don't mean to indicate to you that there are not remains out there. There are, and the investigators that are there, the analysts are going to get them as the people of Vietnam --

Chairman Kerry: But you are suggesting those are the ones in private hands?

Mr. Schweitzer: Private hands.

Chairman Kerry: Or in provincial hands.

Mr. Schweitzer: Or, possibly, that haven't been excavated yet. The location of the grave sites is known by -- you were given the example by Colonel Dai, a very vivid example. He knows the location of four graves. Remains Schweitzer 12/04/92 Sen. McCain: You do not disagree with that, Mr. Schweitzer, that there are remains in different parts of the country.

Mr. Schweitzer: I wouldn't disagree with anything Bill Bell says. He's the real expert on this. Remains Schweitzer 12/04/92 However, this does not mean that remains, or even partial remains may be found for most of these cases. The majority of the remaining MIA cases in Vietnam may eventually be resolved by means of other factors. These will include photos, documents, aircraft wreckage, memorabilia, and personal stories told by a farmer, a People's Army Vietnam soldiers, and civilians. Remains Vessey 11/05/91 . . . U.S. analysts have combined these facts to build a case which suggests that the Vietnamese government could be holding as many as several hundred sets of remains. Remains Vessey 12/04/92 ...for example, if there were an air crash they were to find -- the local people were to find the crash, find the pilot if he were alive, capture him; if he wasn't alive, find the remains then bury them on the stop and then report the location of those -- of the grave to the central authorities. And then the central authorities clearly had a system for recovering those remains at a later date, one, two, or five years later, and then sending those remains to central storage. Remains Vessey 06/25/92 In the past five years we've received 332 sets of remains... Of those, 125 have been identified and returned to their families. Another 107 might be those of Americans, but have not yet been identified, and the remaining 100 sets are not remains of missing Americans.

In the 119 discrepancy cases which have been the focus of our joint field investigations, 22 have been resolved through recovery, return and identification of remains. In 39 other sets we and the Vietnamese have agreed that the individuals involved are dead which confirms an earlier presumptive finding of death. in four of those cases we agree that we will not be bale to recover remains.

For the other 35 of those cases we believe that there still may be an opportunity to recover the remains... The other 58 cases continue to be investigated. They all have been investigated at least once and most several times... none of the new evidence gathered... points toward any of the individuals being alive. Remains Vessey 11/05/91 ...U.S. analysts have combined these facts to build a case which suggests that the Vietnamese government could be holding as many as several hundred sets of remains. Reparations Kissinger 09/22/92 ...we did not want to create the impression of ransom and reparations. Reparations Kissinger 09/22/92 The North Vietnamese, in what turned into a constant pattern, immediately began to violate the agreement, especially with respect to a full accounting of MIAs. They did not hand over the POW list for Laos as required on January 27th.

In response, we delayed deliveries to them of the confidential Presidential letter on recommending to Congress reconstruction assistance after peace had been established. The letter was kept confidential only to prevent a linkage between the agreement and what we presented as a unilateral American act. A Presidential report to the Congress in February 1972 had affirmed this undertaking, and have a figure of $2.5 billion. It was again repeated in the Presidential speech of May 8, 1972. Mr. Chairman, some suggestions have been made, including this morning, that the North Vietnamese may have withheld some American prisoners in an effort to get this economic aid. I find this reasoning difficult to understand. Reparations Kissinger 09/22/92 I don't believe that reparations were their primary objective. Their primary objective was to take over Indochina, and if all they had wanted from us was economic aid, all they would have had to do was observe the agreement... Reparations Kissinger 09/22/92 I certainly told them innumerable times that we were not paying ransom, we were not paying reparations, and they have never used it. They never said, you owe us economic aid, and therefore we are holding prisoners. If they had done it, I wouldn't have been astonished. Reparations Kissinger 09/22/92 To encourage compliance with these commitments we held out the inducement first offered by President Johnson in 1965, and frequently reiterated since, at least three times by President Nixon in 1972, of economic aid to North Vietnam. Reparations Kissinger 09/22/92 Finally, it is curious that Americans would make such an argument when the North Vietnamese did not. As the bipartisan House Select Committee reported in 1976, not once in all their discussions with the North Vietnamese, did they cite the American failure to provide economic aid as an excuse for their failure to provide a complete accounting. They have never denied their obligations. They have only denied that they have prisoners.

Why should Americans now put forward an alibi for Hanoi which even Hanoi has never asserted? Reparations Robson 09/24/92 Vice Chairman Smith: ...Dr. Kissinger was very clear about that -- no linkage. Now, why would they bail out if they did not feel there was linkage?

Colonel Robson: I know there was not supposed to be any linkage, Senator, but in fact there was. They were constantly trying to link things...

Vice Chairman Smith: Is Dr. Kissinger wrong in that perception?

Colonel Robson: I know that he had the agreement, the understanding that there would be no linkage. But what happens in Washington and what happens in that little dusty room in Saigon is two different things, Senator. Reparations Smith 09/22/92 [Habib] said in one of the first lists of negotiating points put forward by the North Vietnamese, "The communist side bracketed the release of prisoners with what they described as U.S. responsibility for war damage in Vietnam in a single numbered point. I know of no instance in which an adversary so openly treated this humanitarian problem in this way. We recognized from an early date what we were up against." Reparations Walters 09/21/92 ...My understanding was this is what they really wanted from us, the postwar reconstruction aid and obviously they knew what we really wanted from them short of surrender was the prisoners. Returned POWs Ford 12/01/92 Vice Chairman Smith: I think one area that could be very helpful and, frankly, it has been a real problem, is the POW debriefs. Not regarding anything in there other than the names of individuals that they saw. I have only -- we are restricted to the Chairman and myself. There are 590 of them, and it is impossible to get through those with the two of us doing it...

Ford: Is there any possibility that as a compromise, Senator Smith, that you might allow us to go through that and do this work ourselves? I mean part of this is a contract that we have. It's not a legal contract, but it's certainly a contract in principle, not only to the past POWs but any future POWs.

That when we talk to them after they come back, we know that they've been through hell. We don't expect them to be anything other than human but we want to know, we need to know what happened to them. And we've always made it clear in that process that these would be guarded as sort of nuclear weapons secrets or something, and that's the reason that we've done that. Returned POWs Trowbridge 06/24/92 I know of no prisoners that came home that said, I saw an individual that was alive that we left behind, without other information that may have supported the fact that he died. Soviet Union Kalugin 01/21/92 ... in 1990... I broke with the KGB and went public and denounced the organization as cruel, repressive and inhuman... What I am doing now is simply a continuation of my old story, for which I was sued... and deprived of my rank and pension and everything else. So I am not doing anything new... Soviet Union Kalugin 01/21/92 Chairman Kerry: ...can you help us to understand why Mr. Nechiporenko allegedly said one thing to you at one moment and straight-out denies that he talked to anybody subsequently? Do you have an explanation for that?

General Kalugin: ...my explanation is that he had consulted his former superiors and they would tell him, just say one... I think that's a premeditated lie on the part of the former intelligence organization, and I know the reason... Vietnam remains to be probably one of the last listening posts in the Far East, and to lose a relationship with them... would probably be a major setback for the Soviet intelligence, so why not keep a story which was coordinated with the Vietnamese? Soviet Union Kalugin 01/21/92 ... I do care about people at home. I'm not a defector. I'm a citizen of my country. I love my country. I want to stay in that country. I want to change that country and transform it into something far better than we have today or we had in the last 70 years. And the United States, as I know it, is a country which I always felt friendly for and I will do my best to get both countries closer together and get Russia out of this mess and standing on its feet as a proud nation, a prosperous nation. That's my only desire. Soviet Union Kalugin 01/21/92 ...to take any American against his will to the USSR would require a major political decision by the Politburo and Brezhnev personally... They would never risk [the damage to Soviet/American relations... It makes no practical sense, no political or military sense. They could have been interviewed on the spot and that made sense indeed. Soviet Union Kalugin 01/21/92 I do have a lot of obligations [regarding confidentiality], according to the old rules, but I think it's time to set new rules. Soviet Union Kalugin 01/21/92 The GRU is an autonomous organization and the KGB's role in regard to the military intelligence is to protect this agency from foreign intelligence agencies' penetration, and second, to control their political health, so to speak. That was the major role of the KGB. Otherwise, they would act autonomously, do their things without the KGB's knowledge. Soviet Union Kalugin 01/21/92 At least for us, for [American POWs] to go would be the best thing, because we would have probably some potential sources. To keep them in Vietnam, it's a loss of everything, it's a complete failure as an intelligence operation. Soviet Union Kalugin 01/21/92 Two years ago, or about that time, I said publicly that the KGB was a state within a state which would do everything to disrupt the process of democratization in my country. I was denounced as a liar, as a mental jerk or something, and I was stripped of my honors and everything, but one- and-a-half years later, Mr. Gorbachev, after his return from the Crimea, said the same -- the KGB was a state within a state -- and he confirmed what I has said previously. . . . everything that I have said so far found at a later time confirmation. Soviet Union Kalugin 01/21/92 I am sure that [Soviet military interrogation of U.S. POWs] happened, because they did have a major interest in American know-how, in weaponry, details, instructions. This would be a natural thing to expect, but this is my assumption. I do not say that this really happened. Soviet Union Kalugin 01/21/92 I would reject the idea of American POWs taken to the Soviet Union. We don't have to take them to the Soviet Union. They could have been interrogated in Vietnam. The Vietnamese wanted us to interrogate them... to take any American against his will to the USSR would require a major political decision by the Politburo and Brezhnev personally... They would never risk, because of one or a handful of Americans, to be taken inside to damage the Soviet/American relations... It makes no practical sense, no political or military sense. They could have been interviewed on the spot and that made sense indeed. Soviet Union Kalugin 01/21/92 Sen. Reid: Why couldn't your story be a continuation of the intrigue, deceit and lies and destroying records that you were involved in for some 32 years?

General Kalugin: Well, it makes no sense. I am 57 and I've lived a very interesting life. Today I want to live a different life, just an honest and simple [one]. You may believe it -- as I say, take it or leave it. Soviet Union Kerry 01/21/92 General Kalugin's startling account has been disputed by the Government of Vietnam, discounted by the CIA and denied outright by the KGB agent who allegedly carried out the interviews. This conflict between statement and denial is precisely the type of situation the Committee expects to run into time and time again. Our intent is to build as complete a record as we can, to take neither allegations nor denials at face value, to contact original sources whenever possible, and to locate contemporaneous documentation wherever it exists. We cannot, in this way, be sure of arriving at the truth, but we can be certain that we have left no avenue unexplored in our pursuit of the truth. Soviet Union Kohl 11/15/91 What happens in 41 years that we do not go back and re-inquire and ask whether or not there is some information that would be useful?.. We inquired about many, many people in the Soviet Union about whom we were concerned -- Soviet Jewry, rightfully so, Raoul Wallenberg and many others. Why were we not at the same time asking consistently about POWs and missing POWs in the Soviet Union that we did not have any information on, or inadequate information on? Soviet Union Mooney 01/22/92 The interest in Moscow Bound is totally surprising to me... It's an intelligence given... The Soviets do take our people... Unlike World War II and Korea, the Soviets did not need a bunch of people for labor. They were after the minds... They were not stealing them by the hundreds. They were few and rare. Soviet Union Shields 06/25/92 Some early releases came home from Vietnam via Moscow, but we never had any indication that prisoners were transferred to the Soviet Union and detained there. Soviet Union Smith 01/21/92 General Kalugin's comments have produced admissions from the CIA, the KGB, and even Vietnam, that at least one American POW was interrogated by the Soviets. For seven years, I was told just the opposite. Soviet Union Vessey 06/25/92 Vessey: And Colonel Nechiporenko who was Kalugin's source, said that isn't what I told Kalugin. I told him I interviewed one person in 1973... The Vietnamese say yes, that's what happened... Now, surely the Soviets gave questions to the Vietnamese. There are al sorts of information that the Soviets desperately wanted from our people, and surely they had worked out some sort of arrangement to try to get that information from our people. As far as we know, from debriefing the prisoners returned, none of them reported having been interrogated by the Soviets. There were some Cubans involved, but none were interrogated by Soviets.

Senator Kassebaum: Any Chinese?

Vessey: And so far as I know, none by the Chinese. Symbols Andrews 10/15/92 Sen. Grassley: Mr. Andrews, I want to ask about Morse code K. DIA determined that the Dong Manh facility was a re-education center, yet the CIA analysis shows it to be one of the most security facilities that they have seen, and we have had reference to that in the CIA memo. Can you back up your assessment and indicate to us why the CIA's analysis is wrong?

Mr. Andrews: Senator, as I said in my statement and in subsequent questions already, that initial analysis was their best estimate at the time. This was mad prior to the extensive interviews we have had of inmates of the facility where we got a lot more information on the security and the nature of the facility. That's our best judgment. Symbols Andrews 10/15/92 The USA and possible K remain unexplained despite extensive tasking of information collection activities of the intelligence community. No correlation to a know, unaccounted for individual -- to a known, unaccounted for individual -- has been made. And unless an unexpected lead develops, there is little more that can be done other than continuing to monitor the situation. Symbols Andrews 10/15/92 Vice Chairman Smith: Now that, to say the least, is pretty outrageous, based on this Senator's opinion. You teach people to communicate, you teach them how to communicate, you teach them what to communicate with, and then you do not keep the number so that you can identify them when they communicate. You are going to have a hell of a job identifying them, are you not?

Mr. Andrews: Absolutely. Symbols Andrews 10/15/92 Every image that I am aware of that we have taken, we've analyzed and the committee has been made aware of, and we've talked about today... Symbols Andrews 10/15/92 ...of all the millions of square kilometers of territory in Southeast Asia that we've examined over the years, we really only have two unexplained sets of symbols which were clearly intended to communicate something to an observer from above. And that's the 19 or 1573 TH and the USA with the possible K. Symbols Andrews 10/15/92 Vice Chairman Smith: ...let us assume that a number appears on a photograph. Let us assume that you cannot make any determination any way, shape, or form, that thing was created by a natural object. Your analysts say there is nothing that we can find anywhere in any of the imagery in any way we analyze this, that in any way that this number that we see was made by natural objects.

You then see that number. What is going to be your recommendation if you cannot determine for sure that it was a man-made object? What is going to be your recommendation? What are you going to do?...

Mr. Andrews: Sir, I will offer you a personal opinion. We always, when we have reason to believe that something may be an indicator, we follow up, as Mr. Erickson says or as Mr. Dussault said. The first thing you do is go collect more information. So that's exactly what we would do. Until we could resolve it, we would follow up. And that's what we've done with these others. Symbols Andrews 10/15/92 I think that it's -- it's very hard when you're trying to go back a number of years to try to put yourself in the place of an imagery analyst or an analyst in that time frame tho know why he concluded what he concluded. We've done the best we could, at the committee's request, to reexamine all this imagery and bring in multiple people to look at it. And what we looked at, we saw a possible 52 that we believed we could explain. Symbols Andrews 10/15/92 Mr. Andrews: If there was a number on the ground that an escaped prisoner made and we detected it, we would not dismiss it until we had done everything we could to resolve what the case was.

Vice Chairman Smith: Well, you may not be able to.

Mr. Andrews: Well -- and that's our problem. So we keep it unexplained. It would immediately go on my unexplained list, Senator Smith.

Vice Chairman Smith: Well, it sits on the unexplained list, what happens to the poor guy down there that is making the number?

Mr. Andrews: Senator, we do everything we can with the resources available to us to follow up on these various numbers. Symbols Andrews 10/15/92 Viewing a poor-quality print with a magnifying glass is just not how imagery exploitation should be done...When the JSSA personnel viewed the original quality imagery of the printed photography on a light table using high resolution optics the nature of all the supposed evader symbols became clear.

They were simply vegetation, shadows, or artifacts of the photography production process. Some possible symbols were even in the tops of 200 foot tall tress, an unlikely place for an evading POW to leave a signal. When shown photographs of other locations -- and I think this is very significant -- other locations in Africa and one in Utah, the JSSA personnel also saw the same kinds of symbols, symbols which again disappeared on the light table. Symbols Andrews 10/15/92 No one -- not DIA, not CIA, and not the JSSA -- can correlate the USA and possible K symbols to an unaccounted- for individual. Symbols Andrews 10/15/92 Vice Chairman Smith: ...in spite of all that information, in spite of the fact that they were taught to provide identifying information to imagery from above, we do not have the list of those identifier numbers to find them if they signal. Is that correct?...

Mr. Dussault: Yes, sir. As far as I know right now, yes, sir. Symbols Andrews 10/15/92 Vice Chairman Smith: I think the laws of probability would indicate to you that if there are a series of numbers that identify with an individual or individuals who are missing in action in Southeast Asia and those numbers correlate with individuals, the laws of probability would tell you that it is a very high probability that those people are, in fact, identified with those numbers. Symbols Andrews 10/15/92 Vice Chairman Smith: Is it your position that these symbols are -- well, to use the term, is it your position that what you say on the imagery is valid until proven otherwise?

Mr. Andrews: Yes, sir.

Vice Chairman Smith: Is it your position, as well?

Mr. Dussault: Yes, sir. Symbols Andrews 10/15/92 ...the other point that Senator Smith made that I would like to respond to regarding circling the wagons and directed that everybody get in line...

None of the players, and you have deposed them on this particular subject, none of the players were asked or directed or forced in anyway to change their minds...

We simply brought them together so that we could better serve the committee. We're not circling the wagons. We want to get the information to you. We believe there's a good story to tell if we get the accurate information and not the incomplete information on the table. Symbols Andrews 10/15/92 Vice Chairman Smith: ...nobody said to this Committee when we showed you this [information on symbols], thank you... We will take a look at that. Maybe we missed something. That is not what we heard.

What we heard was immediately circling the wagons, pulling everybody together, saying we will have one position on this. No one is to talk to the committee. We will have one position to the committee, and we are telling you now that position is that those are not symbols and those people are not missing. And I find it outrageous that is the way this issue is being treated...

Andrews: Senator, if I could, first of all, we do take them very seriously. When the USA came to our attention, we had an analyst on an airplane within a couple of days to Southeast Asia to try to follow-up on actions that we could take to determine what was there. We collected additional intelligence information and continued that process. Symbols Chagnon 10/15/92 Ms. Chagnon: The gentleman here before us said that here was one possibility of these being written by POWs, one being that it was a ruse by resistance people. Those letters could be Lao letters.

Vice Chairman Smith: What would it say in Lao? Does it say anything?

Ms. Chagnon: ...it could be ba ra hoi, which means don't wait. It could be the abbreviation for those three words...I have a Lao friend staying with us...I said what would these letters stand for if you saw them anywhere, and she immediately picked out ba ra hoi... Symbols CHECK QUOTE He also stated under oath, that although Committee investigators suggested he contact JSSA to become educated in the distress symbol program, he did not arrange for such a briefing until June; page 21. Symbols Clapper 12/01/92 The joint investigation team travelled to Sam Nuea Province on 29 November '92, located the rice field where the USA symbol was made, interviewed it's owner, and discovered that the owner's eldest son made the USA symbol by copying it from an envelope because he liked the shape of the letters. Symbols Dussault 10/15/92 Sen. Grassley: Mr. Dussault, did you also think that you saw a name faintly scratched in the field?

Mr. Dussault: Yes, sir.

Sen. Grassley: Without telling us the name, did you try to match it with the names on the missing list?

Mr. Dussault: About three days later, yes, sir. At first I didn't realize it was a name.

Sen. Grassley: Did it match any names?

Mr. Dussault: To my recollection, it did. Symbols Dussault 10/15/92 And in this case, in my mind, it's a possibility that the individual may have tried over the last 15 years various signals. None of those got any attention, so he's going to go with a blatant USA. Symbols Dussault 10/15/92 Chairman Kerry: And it has the walking appearance, whatever that extra -- I don't want to get into any classified area. Do you believe it's distinctly a K?

Mr. Dussault: It to me looks like a K, and that's how I think we ought to consider it. And I've said that in writing, I think, and I've really done that for a reason. My position is...Give the benefit of the doubt to the operator. That's always been my concern. Symbols Dussault 10/15/92 Sen. Grassley: Did you see, 72 TA 88?

Mr. Dussault: Yes, sir. To my recollection that's what I saw.

Sen. Grassley: How did you interpret that?

Mr. Dussault: At first, my first interpretation of that is -- 72 was the year the guy went down. TZ was his E&E code letters. And 88 could have been the year he arrived there or the year he left. And that was my interpretation. I don't know if that's even close. That's just speculation. Symbols Dussault 10/15/92 Sen. Grassley: When you saw 72 TA 88, did it match a person that was missing?

Mr. Dussault: Sir, again, we are talking a year, two letters, TA -- and those are E&E code letters that applied during 1972.

Sen. Grassley: when you found the name, though, did it match when that person went down?

Mr. Dussault: Yes, sir. Symbols Dussault 10/15/92 Vice Chairman Smith: ...we cannot assume that is made while the person is in captivity, can we? The person could have escaped, is that not correct?

Mr. Dussault: Yes, sir, that is correct.

Vice Chairman Smith: And made it while he was escaping?

Mr. Dussault: Yes, that's one of the possibilities. He could be an escapee hiding out in that area, made a K, went back into hiding, for a couple of weeks, stayed close by, within a kilometer, which is his training, and then goes back and does the USA. Again, maybe even at night, under a moonlit night, or something like that, he gets out there and works for three hours. Symbols Dussault/ Erickson 10/15/92 Vice Chairman Smith: ...we have an agency that teaches pilots escape and evasion procedures and identifying or authenticating numbers in order to locate them. Those people who taught that were not sent any imagery until at least, at the minimal, 1985; most of it was seen after this committee showed it to them in 1992. Is that correct?

Mr. Dussault: Yes, sir.

Mr. Erickson: Yes. Symbols Elder 10/15/92 Vice Chairman Smith: ...If you could remove yourself from what you heard here this morning, did you ever hear any information from anybody regarding that, any indigenous person in Laos or anybody else who was in Laos regarding the USA?

Mr. Elder: I did not. Symbols Erickson 10/15/92 Chairman Kerry: Now, we have discussed this previously, and this is not classified. But how long would it take a person to dig out a USA of that size?

Mr. Erickson: At least and hour per letter for one individual.

Chairman Kerry: So, three hours of work?

Mr. Erickson: At least.