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From: news@fedfil.UUCP (news) Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: By request: Mayan (Popul-Vuh) and Egyptian versions of 1500 BC Message-ID: <166@fedfil.UUCP> Date: 9 Dec 92 03:43:15 GMT Organization: HTE Lines: 385

If Velikovsky is correct, one would expect (since 1500 BC isn't really THAT long ago) to find accounts in far off corners of the world describing the great catastrophe of 1500 BC, AND ascribing its cause to the planet Venus. Conversely, if Sagan is correct and Venus has been in its present orbit since before man's time on earth, there is NO WAY that we should read this same account from Egypt and Mexico, which to our knowledge had no contacts in 1500 BC. That would involve these two totally separated groups of people totally fabricating the same preposterous tale and ascribing to it the same preposterous cause by PURE CHANCE. Of all people, Sagan, the great expert on probability, should know what the odds are on that. Nonetheless:

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Part I, the tale from central America:

Central American people had achieved a high level of organization at the time of the arrival of the Europeans and, although most of these peoples literature was burned by the Spaniards, a few pieces survive not only in hieroglyphics, but also in our own alphabet, which Mayan priests very quickly picked up on.

One version of the tale survives in the Mayan Popul Vuh, or Council Book. A number of translations of the Mayan council book (Popol Vuh) are now available in inexpensive paperback form; I have here a copy of Dennis Tedlock's translation, Simon & Schuster / Touchstone 1985/86.

Again, the basic idea of the first half of Worlds in collision: that Venus (then on an erratic, stretched elliptical orbit) nearly collided with Earth, causing every manner of havoc, encounters with debris trailing Venus beginning with fine dust and growing to ferocious storms of large meteorites, rains of burning hydrocarbon substances (interaction of Venus' atmosphere and ours), giant earthquakes, fierce winds, flooding nearly everywhere etc., followed by a protracted period of near total darkness either as a kind of semi-nuclear winter caused by debris hanging in our own atmosphere, or because our own present relationship with our own sun was not yet completely established. During that time, Venus itself served as a light source, at least some of the time.

Back to the Popol Vuh. We read the tale of the third race of people, who the Mayans regarded as a wooden race because:

p 84. "They were not competent, nor did they speak before the builder and sculptor who had made them and brought them forth, and so they were killed, done in by a flood."

"There came a rain of resin from the sky."

p 260. "Andres Xiloj commented: 'This was turpentine that fell, and it was burning as it fell'".

This is the same tale which we read in Exodus ("and so there was thunder and hail, and fire mingled with the hail... ...and the fire ran along the ground... etc.) This is the basis of Velikovsky's interpretation, which has petroleum distillates forming from the ad- mixture of earth and Venus atmospheric elements, and falling to earth and igniting.

p 84. "There came one called Gouger of Faces; he gouged out their eyeballs."

"There came Sudden Bloodletter; he snapped off their heads."

"There came Crunching Jaguar; he ate their flesh."

"There came tearing Jaguar; he tore them open."

hard times...

p 84.

"They were pounded down to the bones and tendons, smashed and pulverized even to the bones. Their faces were smashed because they were incompetent before their mother and their father, the heart of sky, named Hurricane. The Earth was blackened because of this; the black rainstorm began, rain all day and rain all night. Into their houses came the animals small and great. Their faces were crushed by things of wood and stone."

Glad I wasn't there...

p 58.

"The longest fast, 340 days, corresponds to a segment of the Mayan Venus calendar, beginning with the departure of Venus as the morning star, and continuing through its stay in the underworld and its period of reappearance as the evening star, leaving just eight days to go before its rebirth as the morning star. This probably commemorated the heroic adventures of Hunahpu and Xbalanque in Xibalba, the long darkness endured by the first generation of lords as they watched for the appearance of the morning star..."

p 85. "Such was the scattering of the human work, the human design. The people were ground down, overthrown. The mouths and faces of all of them were destroyed and crushed."

p 86.

"This was when there was just a trace of early dawn on the face of the earth, there was no sun. But there was one who magnified himself; Seven Macaw was his name. The earth/sky was already there, but the face of the sun-moon was clouded over. Even so, it is said that his light provided a sign for the people who were flooded."

A very clear and precise statement; following the catastrophe, a celestial body other than the sun or the moon provides light for the world.

p 360.

"The PV does not specify Seven Macaw's actual astronomical identification... but A. gives it as Ursa Major..."

A. is simply wrong. Ursa Major isn't bright enough; remember, this is all through an atmosphere heavy with dust and debris for a protracted period.

p 86.

"[Seven Macaw speaking] 'I am great. My place is now higher than that of the human work, the human design. I am their sun and I am their light, and I am also their months [they should begin to figure time by me]. So be it: my light is great. I am the walkway and I am the foothold of the people, because my eyes are of metal... And this nose of mine shines white into the distance like the moon. Since my nest is metal, it lights up the face of the earth. When I come forth before my nest, I am like the sun and moon for those who are born in the light, begotten in the light. It must be so, because my face reaches into the distance,' says Seven Macaw."

[i.e. light from my face reaches into the distance. ]

"It is not true that he is the sun, this Seven Macaw, yet he magnifies himself, his wings, his metal... The faces of the sun, moon, and stars are not yet visible, it has not yet dawned."

Seven Macaw is, of course, Venus. The people are seeing all of this through a ruined atmosphere, hence some confusion of effects.

p 89.

"Here is the beginning of the defeat and destruction of the day of Seven Macaw by the two boys, the first being named Hunahpu and the second named Xbalanque. Being gods... [i.e. celestial objects]...

p 342.

"Hunaphu and his twin succeed their father and uncle in controlling the morning star aspect of Venus, playing ball at an eastern site..."

This tale goes on for many pages. Not only does Venus dominate all of these stories, but we actually see the origin of the various Meso-American ball games i.e. they are intended to represent the celestial disorder being referred to in the Popol Vuh as well as in other sources.

William Mullen, writing in an article entitled "The Mesoamerican Record" mentions five dominant traits of the Mesoamerican cultures:

1. Urbanization with large populations spread around great ceremonial centers.

2. Belief in cyclical world ages ended by cosmic agents, jaguar, fire-rain, wind, flood, earthquake.

3. Human sacrifice.

4. Ritualistic ball game.

5. Venus worship.

Number four we preserve to this day in the form of the NFL.

Velikovsky mentions a time of wandering in darkness after the great catastrophe: this is seen in pages 175 - 200 of (Tedlock's translation of) the Popol Vuh:

p 176.

"When they came away from Tulan Zuyua, they weren't eating. They observed a continuous fast. It was enough that they watch intently for the dawning, that they watch closely for the rising of the sun, taking turns at watching for the great star named daybringer. This one came first before the sun when the sun was born, the new daybringer.

Page 176 mentions sacrifice and ritualistic self-torture to bring about the first sunset:

"It remains for you to give thanks since you have yet to take care of bleeding your ears and passing a cord through your elbows. You must worship..."

Which the people did and still lamented:

"Alas, we won't be here when we see the dawn, when the sun is born, when the face of the earth is lit."

i.e. the people were afraid they might die of old age first.

p. 181

"And then, when the sun came up, the animals small and great were happy."

Whew!

p 182.

"There were countless peoples, but there was just one dawn for all tribes. And then the face of the earth was dried out by the sun... Before the sun came up it was soggy, and the face of the earth was muddy before the sun came up. And when the sun had risen just a short distance, he was like a person, and his heat was unbearable. Since he revealed himself only when he was born, it is only his reflection which now remains. As they [witnesses] put it in their own words: 'The sun that shows itself is not the real sun'."

"They were overjoyed when it dawned. The people on the mountain of Hacauitz were not yet numerous, just a few were there. Their dawning was there... ...And that became their citadel, since they were there when the sun, moon, stars appeared, when it dawned and cleared on the face of the earth..."

Of course, I don't claim to know every detail of what was going on here. We have more bits and piece of a picture; Velikovsky's picture, not that of Sagan or establishment scientists. These people were seeing the sun for the first time, the sun from our present close orbit for the first time, or just the sun after a very long period of darkness. Recent studies indicate a time frame for these events which correlates well with Velikovsky's date of roughly -1500 for the big catastrophe in WinC.

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Part II. The tale from Israel

I won't bore you with excessive details here; you can read it for yourself in the King James bible. The 14'th chapter of the book of Isaiah contains a hymn of thanksgiving, after Venus settled into stable orbit and ceased to be a threat:

"How art thou fallen from heaven, oh Lucifer, Son of the morning [morning star] ... how art thou cut down to the ground, which did'st weaken the nations... which made the world as a wilderness and destroyed the cities thereof...

As is well known, "Lucifer" meant light-bearer, Venus.

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Part III. The view from Egypt

One version of the Egyptian equivalent of the same tale is found in E.A. Wallis Budge's "Gods of the Egyptians" Vol I, pp 388 - 399, wherein Ra, the old and dying chief God (actually a small star in the last stages of dying out and being removed to an orbit little visible from earth], sends his eye to destroy mankind, which are beginning to blaspheme and no longer take him seriously enough:

From Samuel Noah Kramer's "Mythologies of the Ancient World", Doubleday Anchor, pp 89-90, we read the following concerning the Egyptian conception of the so-called "Eye of Ra", which we read much of in Egyptian mythology:

"Only the eye of Re is identified as a heavenly body in a few sentences in the pyramid texts. We used to understand them as though the eye of Re was identified as the sun, but a careful interpretation of them has unmistakably shown that the eye of Re was the morning star..."

i.e. this is common knowledge amongst Egyptologists. Those who might doubt Kramer as a source can check pages 37 - 40 of the latest version of LaRousse's popular mythological encyclopedia (Pierre Grimal, I believe I'm remembering the name correctly, editor). You'll find the same identification of Sekhet, the Eye of Ra, and Venus.

The following fragment of the Egyptian version of Phaeton myth may thus be seen as clearly implicating the planet Venus in the event. To the best of my knowledge, Velikovsky was unaware of at the time WinC was published.

The most common translations of Egyptian texts from pyramid and tomb walls are those of E.A. Wallis Budge, and Dover offers inexpensive, high-quality paperback versions of these. Budge published his translations towards the end of the last century, and had no ax to grind pro or con Velikovsky.

In Budge's "Gods of the Egyptians", Vol I, pp 388 - 399, we read the story of the destruction of mankind. As the story goes, the great god (Ra) had grown old and feeble and men began to blaspheme, saying:

"behold, his majesty, life, strength, health, has grown old, his bones are like silver, his limbs like gold, his hair like lapis lazuli real"

The attendant gods counseled sending the eye of Ra to punish mankind:

"... let thine eye be upon those who blaspheme thee. ...Let go forth thine eye, let it destroy for thee those who blaspheme with wickedness, not an eye can proceed it in resistance, when it goeth down in the form of Hathor [Venus]... Went forth then goddess this, she slew mankind on the mountain... Said goddess this, when I had power over mankind, it was pleasing to my heart... It came to pass that Sekhet [again, Venus] of the offerings of the night waded about in their blood, beginning in Suten-henen...

Note the term "she slew mankind on the mountain". Where else do we find this phrase?

Isaiah 2/19:

And they shall go into the holes of the rocks and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Isaiah 2/21:

To go into the clefts of the rocks and into the tops of the jagged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Normal earthquakes don't give much warning; running up into clefts in high mountains thus isn't a normal reaction to them. Isaiah, however, is talking about a different kind of an earthquake, such as has not been seen in awhile. The thing is, that when the CAUSE of the earthquake is right there in the sky getting closer daily, you don't need to be but so much of a prophet/astrologer/astronomer to know that you'd BETTER get to high ground or do some kind of thing before long, or your ass is grass.

The peculiar phrase from the pyramid wall is in the same vein, describing people seeking shelter in the hills, and mostly dying anyway.

-- Ted Holden HTE