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Path: uuwest!spies!apple!agate!ucbvax!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: INFO:LAZAR - Billy Goodman interview -Part 1 Keywords: Robert Lazar -UFO - Area51 Message-ID: <1991Jul4.014753.15326@bilver.uucp> Date: 4 Jul 91 01:47:53 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 1458

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The following file(s) appeared on the Paranet UFO network in the late 1989 to 1990 time period. The following files are on Robert Lazar and are copyrighted by Paranet to insure their intgrity. I have not gotten express permission to re-publish them here; however it's my *intent* to make them available for their informational content only.

If you re-circulate these files, please leave the Paranet header info INTACT. These files originally appeared in message form and some of them have been condensed to conserve bandwidth,meaning I have taken the liberty of consolidating several messages together. Other than that action, they are left untouched.

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This is part 1 of the Billy Goodman radio interview with Robert Lazar.

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DATE OF UPLOAD: December 27, 1989 ORIGIN OF UPLOAD: KVEG Radio; Las Vegas, Nevada CONTRIBUTED BY: Robert B. Klinn/ParaNet Director of Research and Investigations ======================================================== (C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service All Rights Reserved unless copyrighted by Author. ========================================================

Below is the transcript of the Billy Goodman Happening Show as it aired on December 20, 1989. Robert Lazar was the guest of Billy Goodman.

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12/20/89 Billy Goodman

Goodman: What exactly does Area S-4 mean?

Lazar: I really don't know. It might be referred to as "Site" 4 -- that might be what the "S" is for, but I really don't know. There are THREE S-4's in all of the Nevada Test Site. The nuclear test site itself is a small area, and it has "sites" or "areas" 1 to 29 or 30. The S-4 there, I think, is a nuclear reactor. There's an S-4 just south of the Tonopah test range. And there's an S-4 -- the one that I worked at -- just south of Groom Lake.

Goodman: Bob Lazar, while working there as a Government scientist, saw not only one but as many as nine flying saucers. And he's telling the whole world about it. He wants everybody to know that in fact there are flying saucers out there. Last time you were here, you never really told us what are their plans with these flying saucers. Do you have any idea WHY we have flying saucers at this point?

Lazar: I guess it's just essentially research. The idea is to back- engineer them, to go back and find out how they can be duplicated using earthly materials and technology.

606: Is it possible these machines travel in time back and forth?

Lazar: It's certainly possible. Certainly, when you create any artificial gravitational field, you technically move in your own time. So technically, you do slip forward when you create your own intense gravitational field.

606: BACK in time too?

Lazar: Theoretically, that's possible. Exactly how you would do that, I don't know off the top of my head.

606: So that could be used like a time machine, right?

Lazar: Essentially yeah, that is --

606: For time travel?

Lazar: -- that is possible.

606: Wow! That's really something!

Lazar: Yeah, that's science-fiction-like.

Fritz, Westlake, California: Billy, it is sizzling again on the West Coast. Bob Lazar, thank you very much for coming on again. You must come on. This has got to go nationwide. The cat is out of the bag. I'm sure those little gods in S-54 are listening in, and believe me, it's your best security to come on. If anything happens to you, we're all behind you, Bob Lazar -- everybody. This is like a snowball going down the hill and will become an avalanche, and ignorance will be wiped out. We've got to know the truth -- for once and forever. They are here! Let's find out why they are here and who they are and what their purpose is.

Lazar: Well thank you!

Fritz: Okay Bob, we're all behind you. Billy, keep that show going! It's the Number One show in America in talk shows.

Goodman: Well, thank you very much Fritz. He did explain to you why we have flying saucers, right?

Fritz: Well, I know why they are here. The general public has to become aware; they're just wakening up. It's like a film being lifted from their eyes. I mean, they've been laughing for forty years!

Goodman: Wait a minute Fritz. You know why they're here? Why are they here, Fritz?

Fritz: Well, first of all, it's a conditioning process.

Goodman: Okay, you got it.

Fritz: We are in a quarantine because we are so ignorant; our ignorance keeps us from meeting them. Big brother reaches out the hand and says, "Come over, little brother, let's have the cosmic connection," but we have to become a world together -- earthlings. We are about 170 nations -- 170 languages; we have to come together. When we have a spokesman, then we will meet on equal ground.

Tim from Pasadena: When you looked into the saucer, how does the hatch work? How does it seal up, and what are all of the mechanics involved?

Lazar: The hatch -- or whatever it was -- was completely removed; there was just an opening in the side of the craft.

Tim: Did the opening have any kind of sealing around it or a lip?

Lazar: I really don't remember. 'Cause I was so interested in looking inside, I didn't really catch a strong glimpse of the sealing mechanism or any other thing around it.

Tim: When you were previously on Billy's show, you said you looked into one, and it was all smooth like it had been a wax casting.

Lazar: Yeah, exactly.

Tim: Now, was that the only one you looked into?

Lazar: No, it was the only one I looked into. The other ones I just saw from a distance, so I don't know any detail about them.

Tim: And the one you looked into, was that the "Sport Model"?

Lazar: Yes, exactly.

Tim: And that's the only one you saw fly as well?

Lazar: Right.

Tim: What was your work there?

Lazar: Like I said before, it was essentially to back-engineer the propulsion and power system.

Tim: So you weren't really involved in the mechanics of the craft itself?

Lazar: No, not at all.

Tim: But mostly just the Element 115 and all that kind of stuff you were learning about?

Lazar: Right.

Goodman: What is gravity?

Lazar: Gravity is a wave. It's a force, essentially, just like electromagnetic waves are a different type of force. I really don't know a good way to describe gravity.

Goodman: Einstein and other scientists really don't have an answer for what gravity is, do they, totally; they don't really understand it totally, do they?

Lazar: No, no, not at all. In fact, I don't think we understand ANYTHING about gravity.

Goodman: Why don't we just float away ourselves? What keeps us down on the planet?

Lazar: That is the attractive force of gravity.

Goodman: Some people say it presses down, but it doesn't, does it?

Lazar: No, it doesn't. It's an attractive force. It's like, on an atomic scale, the strong and weak nuclear forces hold the atoms individually together.

Goodman: Is your actual title government scientist or physicist?

Lazar: You could use either one.

Goodman: You are no longer a government scientist or physicist, right?

Lazar: Not employed by the government.

Goodman: But you are continuing in the scientific field. What do you do?

Lazar: I design and build advanced radiation detection equipment, mainly alpha radiation equipment for essentially use in detecting plutonium for national laboratories.

Lee Samuels: How long has that craft been on this earth?

Lazar: I really don't know. I don't even know how long it's been down at S-4.

Samuels: Do you know where it originally landed?

Lazar: No, you got me on all that stuff. They really never keep me in as to --

Samuels: It could have been here for years?

Lazar: Yeah. Or it could have been brought in in pieces from somewhere else, too.

Samuels: Did you see just one craft or a number of craft?

Lazar: I saw a number of them.

Samuels: Did the other workers talk about it, where it came from, or more they towed in, or whatever?

Lazar: I don't know. There really wasn't that much conversation between everyone.

Samuels: Were you by yourself when you were investigating the craft?

Lazar: Walking by myself. There were security people around me, but when I crawled underneath on the sub-floor to look at the gravity amplifiers, I got away from them. But there was no one right next to me the whole time.

Samuels: Any evidence of LIVE aliens held captive?

Lazar: Nothing I could put my finger on.

Samuels: Then you didn't get to see any at all then in that sector?

Lazar: Nothing I could put my finger on.

Samuels: Did the craft have sleeping quarters for aliens? Is it like a Star Trek craft? What kind of craft is it?

Lazar: No, it's pretty vacant inside. Granted, a couple of things were removed; they were sawed off at the base. I don't know what they were; I just saw little stumps on the ground, so I don't know what was removed. But it doesn't look like it had anything like sleeping quarters or anything like that.

Samuels: Any writing you could detect or any language on the walls?

Lazar: No.

Samuels: Any panels, like a dashboard on a car?

Lazar: Yeah. In fact, that was one of the things -- There was more than one control panel set up, but it looks like one was removed.

Samuels: Were these craft all from the same source? Were they all identical?

Lazar: No. Each craft was completely different in physical appearance. I didn't get to look in depth at the other craft, but I only fooled around with one.

Samuels: I applaud your courage.

Caller (referring to a certain book): Have you heard of him?

Lazar: I think I thumbed through that book once. I think John Lear --

Caller: What the heck is an energy grid on our planet?

Lazar: I don't know. I don't buy that theory or anything in that book. It's a grid outlined over the entire globe, and at each intersection there's an energy vortex of some kind. I'd rather not comment since I don't buy it.

Caller: On TV you mentioned something about a time warp and a folding over. What did you mean by that?

Lazar: Right. It's how gravity, whether produced artificially or naturally, distorts time and space.

Caller: I read about Nicola Tesla questioning Einstein's theory of relativity. He says that energy DOESN'T come from matter. Where does it come from if it doesn't come from matter?

Lazar: That's a strange question. It can be EXTRACTED from matter. But it can be extracted by other means, too. I really don't understand that [question].

Tom from Los Angeles: How can UFOs be kept secret for 40 years?

Lazar: I did pose that question to some people at S-4, and the answer that I got was that it's the easiest thing TO keep secret because of the subject matter.

Tom: Is that because it's tied in with a lot of parapsychology- psychic-type stuff -- National Enquirer?

Lazar: Maybe so. There is so much disinformation made so available to the public via the tabloids and things like that that any true information getting out is assumed to originate from those sources.

Tom: Carl Sagan is a "people" scientist; he's brought science down to the general public. What about getting him involved in this somehow?

Lazar: I imagine he's fairly open-minded. I've never met him.

Tom: He's one of the biggest UFO debunkers.

Lazar: He's going to need his own proof, as everyone should require. It's impossible to make an absolute believer out of someone that hasn't had hands-on experience or has seen something for themselves. That's the way any scientist is going to look at it.

Tom: How far is Zeta Reticuli?

Lazar: I think it's around 32 light years.

Tom: Do these ships travel faster than light?

Lazar: It's an irrelevant question because they get around it because they're not in a linear mode of travel. Since they're distorting time and space, there's no true time reference. And since velocity is distance over time, when you begin to fool around with time, you really can't state a true velocity.

Tom: Re the SETI program -- the search for radio signals -- couldn't some of these observatories or telescopes be aimed at the places where aliens supposedly come from?

Lazar: RADIO waves and frequencies along that band aren't utilized; it's GRAVITY wave communication, and a radio-telescope isn't going to pick up anything of that sort.

Goodman: The way you got to see this UFO was not planned by anyone wanting you to see it, right? You were walking with security and you went into a doorway. How did you describe that before?

Lazar: It may have been planned by them. I had no advance warning of it. I had been brought in a separate door the whole time, and one specific time I was just led into the area where I worked -- through the hangar doors, which I had never been in before -- walked directly by the craft, and began to slow down by it, and they said, "Just keep walking; keep your eyes forward," and it was just like that.

Nothing was said, and I just went and sat down in an empty room.

Goodman: You went and sat down in an empty room after you saw it?

Lazar: Yeah, waited for this guy that I worked with, Barry, and then we went to work on some of the work we were assigned to.

Goodman: What was some of the work that you actually did? What did you actually do at S-4? When you had an assignment, what would it have been, for example?

Lazar: Most of the time I worked there I was being briefed and being brought up to date on what had been done before. Most of the hands-on bench work was with the anti-matter reactor itself: being shown how it operated, giving demonstrations, and things of that sort.

Goodman: There was practically no communication with your fellow workers?

Lazar: Right. They kept that to an absolute minimum. They were on the buddy system: you always worked with someone, and that's the person you communicated with, and there was really no cross- talk between groups.

Goodman: When you went there for the initial interview, you said at the time they actually had a gun at your head --

Lazar: No, that was at the security briefing.

Goodman: Security, wherever that may be -- The initial interview when you went to work at S-4 I'm talking about, that's not when the gun was at your head?

Lazar: No.

Goodman: When you went there, what was your understanding about what you were going to be doing?

Lazar: Some high-technology work, and I assumed they were talking about some sort of gravitational propulsion system.

Goodman: Were you excited about that?

Lazar: Oh yeah, very much so, because there was some talk about that because it was something that I was interested in, something they KNEW I was interested in, and that was the hint that I got.

Goodman: And did it come to fruition? Did what you were told you were going to do actually happen?

Lazar: Yeah.

Goodman: For what period of time?

[Goodman goes right into NEXT question.] How long were you actually there before you let people know what was going on up there? How many months or days or whatever?

Lazar: Probably a couple of months.

Goodman: Every time you went there you literally had to fly up, land at Groom Lake, take a bus that was blacked out at the windows --

Lazar: Right.

Goodman: -- and no communication on the bus. What were you thinking as a young man. You're a very young man; let's face it.

Lazar: I'm not that young.

Goodman: Well, you're a very young man; I think you are. Anyway, what were you thinking? Were you just saying, well this just goes with the territory and I'm just going to go along with this?

Lazar: Oh yeah, you bet! I would have done that and much more just to be involved with the project.

Goodman: Ah! The excitement was just being there, being a part of what was going on behind the scenes. The secret part about it?

Lazar: Oh sure. I would have taken a LOT more crap than they had dealt out.

Goodman: Can you picture it? He's in his thirties, sitting on a bus, and accepting the fact, Okay, I'm going to work this morning, not talking to his compadres on the bus, is looking straight ahead, blackened-out windows, not driving on asphalt, all dirt roads. . . Didn't you ask yourself why they didn't do anything about the dirt roads?

Lazar: It was a good dirt road. A lot of the roads around there are dirt, in fact almost all are.

Mark in Los Angeles: Previously, you described the central column of the propulsion device as being a wave guide. There was a disk toward the bottom of this thing down near the anti-matter generator that spins. What is that disk made of --

Lazar: There's no spinning disk.

Mark: What is the disk made of? Is it a capacitor?

Lazar: A disk? The wave guide extends down, and it widens out and sits on the curved portion of the reactor. The bottom of the reactor is a plate, but nothing rotates or moves; it's all connected together.

Mark: Is that plate a capacitor?

Lazar: No.

Mark: Well, what is it made of?

Lazar: Metal. That's the only way I can describe it; I don't know what kind; it's [electric-] --

Mark: Did anyone determine the kind of metal it was?

Lazar: Not to my knowledge.

Mark: I understand that part of the propulsion system involves a very large capacitor -- which is usually the entire lower surface of the disk -- that can make use of something along the lines of the [Bifield] Brown Effect. Do you know what the components of the dielectric material in that capacitor are?

Lazar: Well, if the bottom of the disk is one plate of the capacitor, then the dielectric material would be the air -- if you're going to look at the earth as another plate of the capacitor. But as far as the capacitor being integral to the actual craft itself, no, I found no evidence of that.

Mark: I understand there's an antenna section in this device; what is the resonant frequency that that operates at?

Lazar: The resonant frequency of the gravity wave I do know, but I don't know it off hand; I just can't remember it.

Mark: Can you give me a ballpark, like 2,000 kilohertz?

Lazar: I really don't remember. It's a really odd frequency.

Mark: Is it measured in kilohertz or gigahertz or megahertz?

Lazar: I really don't remember.

Mark: When you first started to go public and were meeting with people at John Lear's house, I understand that there were a number of witnesses at those first meetings. One of them claims that you did say that you had seen an extraterrestrial while working inside one of those saucers, trying to back- engineer the propulsion system, and that you had been looking out through a doorway or through a porthole in the side of the device and that you had actually seen an extraterrestrial walking around on the outside of one of those devices.

Lazar: Devices meaning disks?

Mark: Yes.

Lazar: No.

Mark: So you're saying you've never seen an extraterrestrial at S-4.

Lazar: I really don't want to get into that.

Mark: The reason I ask is because someone else is claiming that you have.

Lazar: Well, stated the way you did, no I didn't. And I never did look and see an extraterrestrial. As the story goes, and the reason I never bring it up, is because I thought I saw something once -- walking at a glance -- and that's all there is to it. And I won't stand on that fact because it was just a fleeting glimpse; when I came back, whatever was there was gone; it could have been a million things.

Mark: I have a contact that claims that you were responsible for determining that Element 115 was not in fact necessary to operate an anti-gravity propulsion device in the earth's magnetic field. Is that true?

Lazar: No, it's the exact opposite.

Caller: Why are you going public? There's obviously a lot of other staff on the project that senses a great degree of loyalty.

Lazar: The straw that broke the camel's back was, after I left the program I became concerned about what happens now. I made a routine request for my birth certificate, which I needed just for I.D. purposes, and I was told that it doesn't exist, I wasn't even born at that hospital. I sat on that for about a week and just wondered, and then I began to inquire at previous jobs and also at other schools, and that information was also gone. And I got the idea that soon someone was going to disappear, so that's when I contacted the TV station and essentially let everything out.

Caller: But you left the program under very amicable circumstances?

Lazar: No, that's a long, involved story that I really don't want to get into.

Caller: Are you afraid of any repercussions from the govenment?

Lazar: Oh yeah, I was really concerned at one time.

Caller: Less so now?

Lazar: Yeah, less so now, but you still keep in the back of your mind . . .

Caller: If anything would happen to you now, that would cause such an uproar in itself, the last thing they would do would be to go anywhere near you.

Lazar: Exactly. As someone said on the media somewhere, if there're following me now, it's to make sure nothing happens to me.

Caller: Did you witness any working models of the vehicle that were operational?

Lazar: I only saw one operate. I saw one at close range while I was at the area and then at extreme distance -- about 15 miles, when I brought some friends up to look at it.

Caller: Using the technology that's being used, the craft are very agile, aren't they?

Lazar: Oh yes, very, in one specific mode of travel.

Caller: In one direction at a time?

Lazar: No. There's two modes of travel. There's a low-speed mode and a high-speed mode. I don't remember what they called them; they had a specific name for them.

Caller: What was the size of the staff working on the project?

Lazar: 22 people that I knew of, in the area that I worked in. How extensive the rest of the facility was, I don't know.

Caller: I understand you were frustrated at the size of the staff. You thought it should have been larger?

Lazar: Oh yeah! Much!

Caller: More could have been learned about the program more quickly?

Lazar: Sure! I mean, 22 people, c'mon!

Caller: Do you think we understand enough about the alien propulsion technology to build our own vehicles, using this technology -- or are we even close? Do we know what's going on?

Lazar: Yeah, we know what's going on, but the problem is substituting earthly materials, and there's no easy way getting around that.

Caller: How is Element 115 involved in the construction of the vehicles?

Lazar: Everything seems to come down to 115. It's a super-heavy element. It seems that as you get into the heavier elements -- and I'm sure this property extends into as-yet-undiscovered elements in excess of atomic number 115 -- that the ATOMIC gravity wave inside the atoms holding things together begins to extend outside of the atomic structure itself, and it's this wave that can be tapped off in quantity -- small quantity, actually. This wave can be amplified, contained, and used for a useful purpose.

Goodman: Are your radiation detectors for nuclear power plants?

Lazar: Not nuclear power plants; weapon . . .where they use plutonium.

Goodman: Like the latest flight above us now?

Lazar: The Galileo?

Goodman: Yeah.

Lazar: Yeah.

Goodman: Are you involved with that, Mr. Lazar?

Lazar: Not directly. Someone may have used our probes to detect --

Number 37: Are they flying these vehicles within our city areas at any time?

Lazar: I really don't know. I was only witness to a couple tests. I don't know how far they go. I think they're very careful with them. I personally don't think they're whipping them around the solar system because I don't know how profficient they are at operating them.

Number 37: Do you read any UFO literature in book form?

Lazar: Nothing in book form. I occasionally get handed little tidbits here and there and glance at them, but no, I don't delve into reading.

Number 37: You mentioned some stuff on the Billy Meiers case. Have you read any of that information because you had mentioned that you had seen some pictures?

Lazar: Yeah, I looked at the, what caught my eye was certainly the -- whatever that book's called -- Contact From the Plaeides or something -- but it's essentially a picture book; there's really no text in it. One of the craft in there looks strikingly similar to the one I call the Sport Model.

Number 37: What did you think of that similarity? Did that puzzle you?

Lazar: Yeah, because originally I had kind of discounted the Billy Meiers stuff, but that craft looks AMAZINGLY like the one that I worked on. And another thing, somewhere in that book they had a picture of a grassy field with three round indents in the ground. Now that would coincide with the three gravity amplifiers in the bottom of the craft and the imprint that they do make, so that kind of makes me believe that that really did occur.

Number 37: You said you didn't necessarily share the same views of Bill Cooper and John Lear as far as the big picture was concerned?

Lazar: I'm not exactly sure what each individual story is. John Lear has a specific story; Bill Cooper has a specific story. I do agree with both of them in the fact that, yeah, there's alien craft here and so on and so forth. John Lear thinks there're here to use us for food. I don't exactly remember Bill Cooper's story. But the little intricate parts here and there -- I just haven't seen any evidence MYSELF of it. I don't know what these gentlemen have found out on their own.

Caller 37: From everything you know about it, do you believe there is a possibility there are benevolent creatures in the universe?

Lazar: Oh sure.

Goodman: How would you describe this picture?

Lazar: It's an interesting picture. It looks like a formation of four and a formation of two flying saucers.

Goodman: That picture came in a box delivered to the Vagabond Inn. No name, no nothing. Just a note:

"This picture was taken from the 29-1/2-mile marker on the day that I had the best time of my life, thanks to you, Billy Goodman Happening."

That's all.

Lazar: There's even a distortion in the cloud behind a couple of them; that's really interesting.

Goodman: That is right up there where people have gone. Bob mentioned the same thing that I said when I saw that: "Boy, that's a DAYTIME shot."

Look at the smile on Bob Lazar's face!

Lazar: It would be interesting to magnify it to some degree. Very interesting. They're glowing the color that the crafts glow.

Goodman: I don't know who you are out there, but I thank you very, very, very much, because that is absolute, positive proof that they are up there in the sky having a good time.

Do you think that they're flown by alien beings, or are WE -- the military -- doing it?

Lazar: I think that the ones that we're testing . . . the one that I was involved in I think is being flown by the military. Whatever else is going on I don't know.

Was that picture taken over Area 51?

Goodman: That's right. And it looks like it. Recognize the peak?

Lazar: Yeah. Of course, that's a daytime photograph. And I was told that all the testing was done at night. And, I mean, that's interesting.

Goodman: You described, when you went inside one of these little puppies, that there were very, very small seats, almost like a kindergarten type.

Lazar: Right. Exactly.

Goodman: So we have to have some small guys doing it -- jockeys or something?

Lazar: No,no. You could squeeze into it.

Paul: Do these craft appear to be shuttle craft, not the main craft?

Lazar: I don't know how you'd differentiate between the two?

Paul: In most instances, people speak of them joining up with another craft and then going out of the atmosphere. Could the models you've seen be classed as shuttle craft in that respect?

Lazar: I really don't know.

Paul: They wouldn't carry a big fleet of people?

Lazar: No, definitely not. They are small, I'm guessing right in the mid-30-, 40-foot range, somewhere in there. And as far as carrying a lot of cargo or beings or whatever, no, there's not a whole lot of room there. So possibly there is a larger craft that they join with, but I didn't see any.

Paul: Are there more engines than there are craft at S-4?

Lazar: That's a good question. There's nine craft. I really don't know.

Paul: It would be something to explain how in the hell we got more engines than we do craft. There's got to be some kind of an agreement or somebody helping us.

Lazar: Right. There's certainly more fuel than there needs to be.

Paul: Since they have released you and taken away your scientific livelihood, I hope you go on the national circuit, 60 Minutes, the Carson show, everything you can get on, and milk it for every dime you can get.

Lazar: [laughs]

Paul: You have a right to do that since they interrupted your career. But the important thing is to get this stuff into the hands of the scientific community, that can do some good with it.

They've been toying with it for years and nothing's come out of it. We can't get anywhere. We've got to get it out of the hands of these power-mongers.

Lazar: I agree one hundred percent.

Paul: I think that's why you took people up there in the first place. You were tired of their games.

Wesley Crumb, Charleston, Illinois: It's a great privilege to get a chance to speak with you. I greatly admire your courage in coming forward. I saw a copy of the KLAS program you did. When I first heard about you I ran up about a $300 phone bill calling New York and Chicago, and everywhere. I got a rejection today from the Donahue show that they don't want to do a program about you.

Did you go inside all nine spacecraft?

Lazar: No, no, just one.

Crumb: When you were inside the craft, did you see any indication that either through markings on the controls or otherwise that these ships were from a different place? Was there any writing on any controls or anything?

Lazar: No, not on controls and things like that. But I did see some evidence of writing.

Crumb: When you saw the slight demonstration that was performed for you, were you the only person that was there that saw this craft operate?

Lazar: No, there were several people. I was standing right next to the person who was in radio contact with the craft.

Crumb: How long did this demonstration last?

Lazar: It was a short duration. It lifted off the ground, slid over to the left, then back to the right, and set back down. It was a very short duration.

Crumb: But you never saw who was at the controls?

Lazar: No, because when I was brought in, the craft was in the hangar. When I came out, it was already out of the hangar and sitting on -- well, sitting out away from the hangar some distance. So I don't know how it was brought out, who brought it out, who got in it. I can only guess.

Crumb: Is the entire thing underground -- all nine different hangars?

Lazar: No, it's not underground; it's just butt up against the side of a little mountain, a little hill kind of, but it's kind of inside the mountain.

Crumb: Do you feel that the billions of dollars that are being spent on the space program by the administration is a waste of money, as we already have these ships in our posssession?

Lazar: No, because look at all the technology that we did get out of the space program.

Crumb: Was it ever disclosed to you that these craft were on loan to us. Is there a chance of them being repossessed at any time?

Lazar: No, none of that was ever disclosed to me -- anything about the origin.

Crumb: I heard a rumor earlier this evening that your van was shot at recently. Is there any truth to that?

Lazar: I don't have a van. I was shot at in my car.

Crumb: It got passed on to me from the Video Clearinghouse in Yucaipa, and we've been keeping pretty close touch ever since this news broke.

I did get a call yesterday from the National Enquirer. They might follow up and try and do something for you, Bob. The Enquirer is not exactly the best way you want to go, but at least it does have some national exposure.

Burt in Burbank: You said there's more fuel than necessary at the Test Site?

Lazar: Yeah. I don't know exactly where it is, but there's 500 pounds.

Burt: 500 pounds of Element 115?

Lazar: Yeah, and it takes 223 grams per craft, so there's definitely an abundance of fuel out there.

Burt: Could you quickly describe the underside of these ships?

Lazar: No, because I only saw from a SIDE view of only one craft. The other ones were always sitting on the ground; I never saw it. But the underside is essentially flat. Now, I never got directly under it to look. There might be some features down there, but I really don't know.

Burt: The reason I ask is because you were talking about the three distortions that can come down from the gravity engines to distort the graph.

Are you aware of any time distortion within the saucer itself while they are running?

Lazar: Yeah, there has to be.

Burt: What about SIZE distortion within the ship? I've heard reports that people who have been in these that the inside seems much larger than the outside would indicate.

Lazar: I have heard that too, but I haven't really seen any evidence of that.

Burt: You were talking about the low- and high-speed modes and the control factors in there. Can you describe those modes and what the ship looks like each time it is going through those modes?

Lazar: The low-speed mode -- and I REALLY wish I could remember what they call these, but I can't, as I can't remember the frequency of the wave --

The low-speed mode: The craft is very vulnerable; it bobs around. And it's sitting on a weak gravitational field, sitting on three gravity waves. And it just bounces around. And it can focus the waves behind it and keep falling forward and hobble around at low speed.

The second mode: They increase the amplitude of the field, and the craft begins to lift, and it performs a ROLL maneuver: it begins to turn, roll, begins to turn over. As it begins to leave the earth's gravitational field, they point the bottom of the craft at the DESTINATION. This is the second mode of travel, where they converge the three gravity amplifiers -- FOCUS them -- on a point that they want to go to. Then they bring them up to full power, and this is where the tremendous time-space distortion takes place, and that whips them right to that point.

Burt: Did you actually bench-test a unit away from the craft itself?

Lazar: The reactor, yeah.

Burt: About how large is this, and could you describe it?

Lazar: The device itself is probably a plate about 18 inches square; I said diameter before but it is square. There's a half-sphere on top where the gravity wave is tapped off of, but that's about the size of it.

Amy: Are there subjects you won't talk about regarding what was going on at Groom Lake at the project?

Lazar: No, I don't think so.

Amy: Do you have future plans for more publicity?

Lazar: There are several networks that are interested.

Amy: 60 Minutes?

Lazar: That's been mentioned, but I haven't heard anything officially.

Amy: Would you do it?

Lazar: Yeah, I'd do a major network thing, sure.

Amy: Are you familiar with the movie Hangar 18?

Lazar: Yeah, I think I saw that when it first came out.

Amy: Do you remember any parallels to what you know now?

Lazar: I don't remember enough about the movie.

Amy: The KLAS-TV program showed a Los Alamos newspaper article about you during the time that you were at Los Alamos. What paper was that? When was it written?

Lazar: The Monitor, July 1982, or something like that. I think I still have a copy at home.

Amy: Did the alien craft create harmful radioactivity in the area?

Lazar: No.

Amy: The woman talked about on the show a few days ago -- the child and the two women [Cash/Landrum case?] -- and they now have cancer. How did that occur?

Lazar: I've heard of that before, and that sounds like a really poor attempt at us producing a craft -- a nuclear-powered craft, really dirty, spewing nuclear material all over the place. It sounds something that we would make. It really rings human.

Amy: Do the aliens appear to be the same physical makeup? From your research on the craft itself, can you tell if they are similar to us -- by the way it was designed?

Lazar: Certainly smaller.

Amy: But there's nothing other than that?

Lazar: Not from the crafts. I read some material pertaining to what they call the typical grey. I believe them to be that.

Goodman: It was interesting when you asked for your birth certificate, and you could not locate it. And they told you that literally you did not exist? They TOLD you this in so many words?

Lazar: They said we just have no records here.

Goodman: And YOU felt that you didn't exist?

Lazar: I felt that that's what they were trying to make happen.

Goodman: Are you familiar with that type of thing being done?

Lazar: No, I never heard of it before. I guess other people have.

Goodman: Did you ever get your birth certificate?

Lazar: Nope.

Goodman: What about diplomas and things of that nature? Was there any record of any colleges you have attended?

Lazar: George Knapp tracked down one, and they still had a record there.

Goodman: All the rest are gone?

Lazar: Yeah.

Goodman: Have you called the colleges yourself and asked for copies?

Lazar: Yeah. Yeah. Just like I went and called Los Alamos, too, and they said, no, you never worked here, and you know, I've been there for years. You can present them with the information, look, here's my name in the [Los Alamos] phone book, here are the people that I've worked with, here is the guy that I worked for, this is the project I worked on, and all they say is no. I mean it's ridiculous.

Goodman: And when you're talking to these people, I'm sure there are some that probably are just working there; they don't know any different. They are just checking the records and saying we don't have anything.

Lazar: Right. You can hear them when you call up. They are checking on the computer. They will type in your name and it won't come up. So that's probably all they do know.

Goodman: People should realize this -- nowadays especially -- you could be pulled out -- all of us could -- and anything we've ever done. If someone pulls your name out of a computer where you've worked before or you've had some past, you don't exist because the new person or a personnel director going in and checking -- you're not there. You have no record of that individual.

Lazar: Right. It depends on the level that you look into it, too. Like I said, George Knapp went out to Los Alamos, and that's where he got the telephone directory and spoke to someone I worked with out there, and so on.

Goodman: This mode of travel involved in moving these UFOs around: Can you see that being a mode of travel for us in the future. You said it only took grams of fuel. That sounds pretty good to me as far as being efficient. Do you think that it's possible that we could be traveling like that in the future?

Lazar: Well, obviously, THEY do, so I imagine it's possible in the future.

Goodman: I'm talking about our automobiles. And do you have to be off the ground in order to travel like this?

Lazar: Yeah, I think you do. It's not a very good mode of slow-speed travel.

----------Continued in Lazar:Goodman 2 ----------------------------

-- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: uuwest!spies!apple!agate!ucbvax!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: INFO:LAZAR - Billy Goodman interview -Part 2 (conclusion) Keywords: Robert Lazar -UFO - Area51 Message-ID: <1991Jul4.015413.15382@bilver.uucp> Date: 4 Jul 91 01:54:13 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 1451

---------Billy Goodman interview of Robert Lazar, part 2 (conclusion) --

Goodman: Something else we talked about off the air. We might as well tell the people about it. Some strange things are going on in your life. You mentioned about car doors being opened. Describe what happened the other night when you and your . . . Shelley left the house and you came back and the doors were wide open. What do you think about all this?

Lazar: It's crazy! A friend of mine, Shelley, was over, and we went out to a bar to have a, a, well, a buffet. We went out, locked the door, checked everything, and we came back several hours later, and all the doors were open. And nothing was disturbed in the house; nothing was taken. In her car that was left in the driveway, the seats were moved all the way back like someone big sat in them.

I've gone with other friends to a health club that I go to. We lock the doors and check them; in fact, I usually keep a gun in the car and put my wallet on the dash. We've come out and the doors have been not just unlocked but actually open -- not even the wallet taken or the gun. Certainly kids would have done THAT. It's just like someone wants me to know that they're still there.

Goodman: The last time you were on the Happening, you revealed the gentleman's name --

Lazar: Dennis Mariano

Goodman: -- saying he was threatening you and was the biggest problem in your life. Have you had any problems with him since then?

Lazar: No, not recently, no.

Goodman: How would the anti-matter reactor act in a car?

Lazar: I don't know if I'd use that in a car. But if you wanted to, you could use it as a tremendous electrical power.

Goodman: Which goes back to the beginning of time: We were going to have electric cars and were convinced we shouldn't have electric cars because we were told we would have to plug them in along the way.

It wouldn't be necessary -- as they said years ago -- to plug in along the way to re-charge the batteries if we had something inside to generate --

Lazar: Right. Along the same lines, you could make a NUCLEAR-powered car, too, running off plutonium.

Goodman: If we wanted to get involved with this anti-matter-reactor-type or mode of travel, we'd have to have Element 115 --

Lazar: Right.

Goodman: -- which you had in your possession at one time.

Lazar: Yeah, that's one of the things I got. And that was my ace-in-the-hole.

Goodman: And they got it off you.

Lazar: Yeah. We did get it. . . For people that saw the KLAS tape, where George Knapp points and says, "It's stored in containers similar to this one," well, that WAS one. And that's why we put it on there. It was kind of a jab at them to say we got it. That was the real ace-in-the-hole because if everyone came out and jumped on it and said this is all garbage and everything, you know, just to pop that out and say, go check this!

Goodman: Listen guys out there at Area S-4: I know you're listening 'cause we heard this recently. Why don't you get some of that somehow to Bob.

Why would that be your ace-in-the-hole?

Lazar: Because anyone can verify that it's an element that doesn't exist.

Goodman: Boy, that would be wonderful if we could just get that. Any of you Mercury Workers up there that want to get involved, and say that you do want to get involved, that might be a great way to help Bob's cause out and to prove his story, behind the story.

Bill from Las Vegas: Someone previously called in and said that some of the Mercury Workers had decided to get behind Lazar. Has Bob Lazar ever heard anything in relation to that? Have any of the Mercury Workers contacted him, and do any of them intend to go public as you have done?

Lazar: I don't know what the situation is with those guys, if they're for real or not. I've got messages through people that someone called once and said there were three of them and two of them were captured down at S-4 being tortured. And there was another guy out here. And so I really don't know what the story is with those guys -- if they're for real or not.

Bill: Have you had any contact from other scientists that you had worked with or any other scientists either at S-4 or any other scientists that don't work there?

Lazar: Scientists that DON'T work there, yeah, that I worked with at Los Alamos, sure. But none at S-4, no.

Bill: Since you've gone public with this, you've had contact with them calling you and wanting to know what's going on, etcetera?

Lazar: Oh yeah. There were a couple that I gave information to as we were going along. And they knew what was going on already -- through me.

Bill: If you had other people to back you up and support you, it might lend more credibility to what you're saying.

Lazar: That was part of the idea of getting it on the news, and I thought hopefully I would shake the tree and have these other guys come forward and all be able to corroborate the story and also have 115 under my belt, but that whole plan backfired.

Bill: This is for them if they're listening: The rest of us simply just don't have the guts to do anything, apparently.

Lazar: I wish they did.

Bill: Anything in the works with regard to any national television coverage or news media coverage of any sort?

Lazar: There's been lots of talk but nothing definite. There's no date set for anything, but there's been a tremendous amount of interest, national and international.

Bill: I heard talk that there's a BIG underground base up there, too. Did you know anything about that?

Lazar: I've heard that story, but I have no first-hand knowledge of it. I haven't been in any tunnels or any underground stuff.

Bill: If these aliens that have these UFOs are obviously thousands of years advanced in technology, it seems, how in the world would it seem that the Government would come in possession of these UFOs, if in fact the aliens didn't actually want them to have them?

Lazar: I don't know. They look in very good condition. It doesn't look like they were crashed, that they were retrieved somewhere. It really looks like they were given. So I don't know; that might be the case.

Goodman: Have you ever given thought to the fact that maybe they were invited here and they actually landed here and that's why they were here?

Lazar: Yeah, it's possible.

Goodman: They could have come right to this area.

Jim from Las Vegas: On TV, you spoke of observing a demonstration of this anti-matter gravity wave controller device. And you made a mock-up copy?

Lazar: A friend made one, yeah.

Jim: I heard you speak of bouncing golf balls off of this anti-gravity field?

Lazar: Yeah.

Jim: And also about the candle, the wax, and the flame stood still?

Lazar: Right.

Jim: And then the hole that you saw appear --

Lazar: It wasn't a hole; it was a little disk.

Jim: Under what conditions did you see this demonstrated. Elaborate on this. And how large was the force field?

Lazar: The force field where the candle was?

Jim: The force field created by the anti-matter device.

Lazar: It was about a 20-inch radius from the surface of the sphere.

Jim: Where was this area, just above the device?

Lazar: Yeah, surrounding the sphere.

Jim: Did the sphere surround the device?

Lazar: No, the sphere sits in the center of the device. It's a half-sphere sitting on a plate, and a field surrounds the half-sphere.

Jim: And you just place a candle in there?

Lazar: No, no, no. That was a separate demonstration. I'm just telling you where the field EXTENDS from.

Jim: Oh, that's what I'm curious about.

Lazar: No, they tap the field off using a wave guide, off of the sphere. And this is a completely different setup, where they had a mockup small gravity amplifier, and there were three focused into a point, and that area of focus was probably nine or ten inches in diameter.

Jim: They displaced this area or moved this area?

Lazar: No, it wasn't displaced; it's just where the field was generated.

Jim: And in there you put the candle?

Lazar: Right.

Jim: And that thing can actually bounce golf balls of of it?

Lazar: No, no. The golf ball thing, again, had nothing to do with that setup. The golf ball thing had something to do with just when the reactor was energized, before the wave guide was put on or anything. We were just pushing on the field; it was being demonstrated to me; and we just bounced a golf ball off the top.

Jim: And the candle: Does it melt and the flame stand still in this DISK that you're talking about?

Lazar: Well, in the AREA, yeah.

Jim: You don't have to put it in the center?

Lazar: Right.

Jim: Just anywhere in the area?

Lazar: Well, the actual flame of the candle WAS in the area -- in the center of the disk.

Jim: And you saw this happen?

Lazar: Yeah.

Goodman: You don't show much emotion.

Lazar: Maybe that's my nature, but that's what happens after ten o'clock if I'm sitting in one place.

Goodman: I'm not being derogatory about it. I'm just saying it seems like there's no emotion. Some of this stuff that you're talking about just gives me chills!

We get mail from people at Jet Propulsion Laboratory and McDonnell Douglas. Would you like to work for people like that?

Lazar: I don't know. I'm kind of used to working for myself. I don't know about going to work for . . . especially anything attached to the Government again, [look with] distrust . . .

Goodman: Off the air, I asked what would you like to see for the future and what could you do for humanity? He said we could talk about that, but the main concern right now is how he can support himself, and I didn't realize you were having difficulty as far as that.

Lazar: Oh no, not really difficulty, but it's something always to look for.

Goodman: How could anyone in our listening audience assist you?

Lazar: Oh, they really can't. There's several things I did before I began to get into the program up there. I used to race my jet car. I'll probably start that up again this season and expand my scientific business, United Nuclear. I'll probably increase that into a sales field and things like that.

Goodman: Okay, I just thought we could bring that up just in case there was someone out there that could use your services. What service do you offer, if someone out there could use it?

Lazar: Someone would have to be fooling around with plutonium, and there aren't many people that do that.

Goodman: Don't bet on that. You never know.

Caller: Was the craft you worked on one that WE made or was it one that was brought here by the aliens from another planet?

Lazar: This is a craft of alien origin.

Caller: That was brought here BY them from another planet?

Lazar: Yeah.

Caller: Do we know anything about their way of life? Do they speak the same language or what?

Lazar: I really don't know. I really know very little about that. I'd LIKE to know a lot about that. You assume that they mass-produce the craft, so there must be some sort of factory somewhere. That means there must be workers in the factory. Do they have a social life? I mean, the questions are endless. I'd like to know myself.

Caller: And if they are here on this planet, WHERE are they?

Lazar: That's another good question. You got me. I really don't know.

Caller: If one walked up to my door, what am I supposed to do?

Lazar: I don't know. I guess you'll find out really quick if they're benevolent or not. But as far as what to do, who knows?

Goodman: Say you're up in Kansas out in a farmland and you see this person that looks really far-out, do you think they're just going to wait for them to come to the door or do you think they're going to shoot and ask questions later?

Lazar: Probably shoot and ask questions later --

Goodman: That's the problem. Wouldn't that cause all kinds of consternation amongst these people if they find out one of their people were --

Lazar: Well, you have all the stories of the abductee reports, about medical examinations; I mean they go through a lot of trauma and stuff like that. When it came right down to it, if I was confronted by a bunch of them -- my car stopped or something to that effect, a craft obviously in sight -- yeah, I'd take on a hostile attitude really quickly.

Goodman: Unless you were told differently --

Lazar: Right.

Goodman: -- by the Government: these people don't mean to harm you; they're going to be landing in your cities, whatever; just [kinda act friendly.]

Caller: Do you think in the future our President will tell us on national television that the UFOs are here, that he will make it known to us?

Lazar: I doubt it.

Caller: You don't think he ever will?

Lazar: No, I don't think he could muster up enough to do that.

Caller: One of the presidents in the past was supposed to say that if he was elected he was going to tell us all about it, but he didn't.

Lazar: Carter. That tells you something right there, because he never got in and denied it. He just got in and didn't say anything.

New caller: Did you have a badge when you went to work?

Lazar: Sure did.

Caller: Did it have any designation on it?

Lazar: As far as what?

Caller: What did it say?

Lazar: It's a white badge. It has two -- a light blue and a dark blue -- diagonal stripes through it. On the top it says MAJ-12. The clearance level is called MAJESTIC; I don't know if that was, like I said before I don't know if that means anything as far as the MAJESTIC-12 documents go, or if they just called that clearance that as a nostalgia type of thing. My picture was on it -- what else was on it . . .

Caller: Did it have both MAJ and MAJESTIC -- both words?

Lazar: The only place I ever saw MAJESTIC was on Dennis's [Mariano] badge, who was my supervisor, and his badge looks slightly different. I don't know if it was an older kind or what.

Caller: You mentioned you were doing back-engineering, but specifically, what was the breakdown of your duties, for example, for one day, with respect to, say, what your co-workers were doing? What was the breakdown, the division of tasks?

Lazar: I have no knowledge of what the other people were doing.

Caller: But you were not working simply by yourself.

Lazar: No, just with one person.

Caller: And what was the difference between what you did and what he did?

Lazar: Well, we were basically in the training phase. He was getting me up to date on everything, so we never split off, and you know, he went and did his thing, and I --

Caller: Did you ever see an analysis or spectrogram of 115?

Lazar: Yes.

Caller: And what did that tell you?

Lazar: Well, that it was an unknown element. Then we did density and weight calculations, which are pretty basic, and of course it was too heavy for its physical size. It was an X-Ray spectrograph. I don't remember what other tests we did to it.

Caller: How did you know what the times of testing would be to go up to the sites to view the object. And do you know where it's being tested now?

Lazar: Dennis told me the testing times. And of course those were the times that I relayed to other people, and we went out there. What was the other question?

Caller: Do you know where it's being tested now?

Lazar: Oh, I have no idea. In fact, if I was them, the last place I would test them would be S-4.

Another Caller: Are you familiar with Alnico 5 magnetic material we use here?

Lazar: Yeah, it's a common -- I never heard the 5 designation.

Caller: It's a very dense magnet. Is that close to the material of 115?

Lazar: Oh no, not at all. That's an acronym for aluminum, nickel, iron, and cobalt, none of them being anywhere near it whatsoever.

Caller: Are there portholes on that craft?

Lazar: At the very top, there is portholes; they are square, though.

Caller: But they must be able to see by TV or. . .?

Lazar: I don't know. I just saw from the outside. When I was inside, I never -- I don't think I really even bothered to look up there; I don't recall.

Caller: With the gravity generators running, is there thermal radiation?

Lazar: No, not at all. I was never down on the bottom WHILE the gravity generators were running, but the reactor itself -- there's no thermal radiation whatsoever. That was one of the really shocking things because that violates the first law of thermodynamics.

Caller: The atomic weight of the 115 material: Is that heavier? We know the 115 atomic weight would be different from the gravitational weight. Is the gravitational weight of that material very heavy?

Lazar: Yeah.

Caller: How does that stuff break off? Do you saw it or does it grind up. How do you get to test grams or whatever it is?

Lazar: I don't know. I really don't know how that's machined into it. I know it is machined, but I don't know if there's any special procedures employed.

Caller: Does it melt?

Lazar: I'm sure it does. And just historically, all heavy elements are also toxic. I imagine it is a very toxic thing. What else? If you use the standard designations as started at 103, its name would be "unuspentium [sp?]." Its symbol -- if it's going to be plugged into the periodic chart -- would be UUP. In fact. I have a friend that gave it kind of a cute name; he calls it "unobtainium."

Caller: In your wildest dreams, do you think you would be able to create any of this stuff on earth -- in order to do the same thing?

Lazar: In fact, I'm in the process of fabricating the gravity amplifier, but then I'm at a tremendous shortage for power. So yeah, I have even tried to do that stuff on my own.

Caller: Is there any electronics as we know it -- chips or transitors?

Lazar: No, nothing like that. Because of the tremendous power involved, too, there was no direct connection between the gravity amplifiers and the reactor itself.

Caller: Are the wave guides similar to what we use with microwaves?

Lazar: Very similar.

Goodman: You mentioned all heavy metals are toxic?

Lazar: Yeah, they seem to be. Lead, radium, plutonium . . .

Goodman: Element 115?

Lazar: You would just assume it would be toxic.

Caller: Is Sector 4 also called Papoose Dry Lake Bed?

Lazar: Yeah.

Caller: Is it also in a place called Emigrant Valley?

Lazar: Right. You can see Papoose Dry Lake from out of the hangar doors.

Caller: In regard to the long-range method of travel, isn't a propulsion unit the wrong idea? I feel this device is creating a situation where it is diminishing or removing the localized gravitational field, and long-distance body that they're heading toward is actually PULLING the vehicle rather than it being pushed. Am I correct in this?

Lazar: The vehicle is not being pushed. But being pulled implies it's being pulled by something externally: it's pulling something else to IT. IT's creating the gravitational field.

Caller: Is there any relation to the monopoles which [scientists] have been looking for?

Lazar: Well, they've been looking for the monopole magnet. But then this [the UFO force] is a gravitational force.

Caller: Different things but exhibiting similar effects?

Lazar: Right.

Caller: Last night I saw a four-door Japanese car. On the right-side, rear, passenger door there were three 9mm bullet holes, about a 12-inch group. Is that the vehicle that was shot at?

Lazar: No. That's similar to my car, but they missed me.

New Caller: Do we give something in exchange for all this information they're giving us?

Lazar: I really don't know. I don't know what went on behind the scenes as far as how we got the technology.

Caller: Did they give us the 115 in large quantities?

Lazar: Yeah, 500 pounds is what I'm told. The way I've seen it, it comes in little thin disks close to the size of a half dollar.

Caller: Did you ever own any, or -- ?

Lazar: Yeah.

Caller: What happened to it?

Lazar: It's gone. It was stolen out of my house along with some other stuff that I got from there.

Caller: [By] the Government?

Lazar: That's what I assume; I HOPE it's in their hands; I'd hate it to be in . . . A few people did know about it -- some UFO-related people -- and I'd hate for unexperienced people to be in possession of the stuff.

But yeah, that was taken. We did get some film of it and some film of it doing some really unusual things.

Caller: How did you get hired at Area 51?

Lazar: I was referred by a well-known physicist to talk to someone. And I really don't want to go all into that because then I'm pointing fingers at specific people.

Caller: Were everyone's mouths shut where you worked?

Lazar: Yeah, everyone wouldn't let you talk, and it wasn't a really happy environment. Everyone was just into what they were doing and that was it.

New Caller: What year were you working up there?

Lazar: Last year.

Caller: I heard from someone I know that's a pretty good source that a small amount of plutonium, like a picogram, might be good for you. Is that true?

Lazar: No, not at all.

Goodman: What would you use plutonium for?

Lazar: To die. In the lungs, it's almost immediate lung cancer. It's toxic in itself. The body has a tough time getting rid of it. It's just bad news.

Goodman: And you're messing with it.

Lazar: I don't have any at my house.

Goodman: You said that's part of what you're working on.

Lazar: Electronic equipment to detect plutonium: They're called alpha radiation detectors or air proportional detectors.

Goodman: Why do you want to detect the plutonium?

Lazar: They use them to screen personnel that are leaving an area that's been plutonium contaminated; they check equipment for plutonium contamination; so on and so forth.

Goodman: This is as bad as radiation?

Lazar: Plutonium does produce radiation.

Goodman: So it's as bad as when they've been clearing the people in nuclear power plants and stuff like this?

Lazar: Yeah.

Goodman: And you're devising a device that's going to be easier?

Lazar: No, our device is just less expensive.

Caller: Can you list your credentials?

Lazar: As far as what?

Caller: Schooling, degrees.

Lazar: I have two masters degrees; one's in physics; one's in electronics. I wrote my thesis on MHD, which is magnetohydrodynamics.

I worked at Los Alamos for a few years as a technician and then as a physicist in the Polarized Proton Section, dealing with the accelerator there.

I was hired at S-4 as a senior staff physicist to work on gravitational propulsion systems and whatnot associated with those crafts.

Caller: What school did you go to?

Lazar: I'd rather not say, the reason being I am currently working with them under contract, and I'm having enough trouble with this as it is.

Caller: Why did you leave the Groom Lake project?

Lazar: I don't want to go into that either. That's a big, long complicated story. It gets into my personal life, too, and I don't want to get into that.

Caller: Have there been any attempts made on your life?

Lazar: Yeah.

Caller: When was the last one?

Lazar: There was only one direct one. I really don't remember when that was, maybe six, eight months ago, something like that. Just being shot at getting out on the freeway.

Caller: Did another car drive by and shoot you?

Lazar: Yeah.

Caller: Are there any weapons on board the alien craft?

Lazar: Not that I know of. Of course, the gravity generators themselves can be focused, and I imagine that can be used as a weapon.

Caller: How many alien people do they hold?

Lazar: I don't know. How many people can you fit in a car? I imagine if there's a bunch standing up, you can pack them in there.

Caller: Is Element 115 an extraterrestrial material?

Lazar: Yes, definitely.

Caller: How do you suppose the S-4 project came to acquire 500 pounds if it's not from this world?

Lazar: I would imagine it came on one of the craft.

Caller: Extra fuel, huh?

Lazar: Maybe.

Caller: How close can a civilian get to Area 51 or Emigrant Valley? What is security like? How many guards and so forth?

Lazar: I think the closest you can get is probably about 10 miles, and then you get a mountain between you and them.

Caller: A lot of patrols?

Lazar: Oh yeah.

Goodman: Off the air, you said you traveled one time on hydrogen in your car.

Lazar: Yeah, I had a 1978 TransAm I converted to run on hydrogen.

Goodman: We were talking about this one night as a new fuel for transportation. Is that more dangerous than gasoline?

Lazar: It depends how it's stored. There's ways you can do it.

You can store it as a gas, compressed in a cylinder where, yeah, it's dangerous and explosive.

You can store it as a liquid -- cryogenic liquid -- where it's also dangerous and explosive.

Or you can also store it in a hydride [sp], a chemical that absorbs hydrogen like a sponge absorbs water. When it's in that storage state, it's really not flammable. You heat the chemical using the radiator water, or electrically, or the exhaust gas to produce the hydrogen, and there's only a small amount at a time ever produced. And in that instance it's a lot safer than gasoline, and that's the method I use.

Goodman: In other words, we could put these in automobiles?

Lazar: Absolutely, definitely. The only exhaust is water vapor -- essentially steam and very little oxides.

Goodman: Where do we get hydrogen?

Lazar: The most common place is from water. When you pass electricity through water, you break down the bonds and wind up with oxygen and hydrogen.

Goodman: What could we be charged if we pulled up to a tank and asked for some water?

Lazar: It takes energy to separate the water back into its molecular state, or atomic state rather.

Goodman: But forgetting what the components are inside the car, if a driver were to drive up, they would just have to put water into this particular unit? Could they make it that simple?

Lazar: You could make it that simple, yes.

Goodman: Has this been known for years in the scientific field?

Lazar: There's been plenty of cars that have been made to run on hydrogen. In fact one state somewhere has their entire postal fleet with little jeeps that run on hydrogen. There's a company called Billings Energy that does the conversions.

Goodman: Why do you think it's not being made readily available to us?

Lazar: There's probably lots of reasons. You're looking at the oil companies. . .

Goodman: Okay. That's what I wanted to get to.

Lazar: But you can always point your finger at them for anything.

Goodman: But I mean, it's just being held back from us even though it could be here.

Lazar: But you've got the problem of availability, too, if you're going to just use gaseous hydrogen.

Goodman: What would it take to change our current motor in a car to accept this?

Lazar: Not very much at all. It's very similar to a propane conversion.

Goodman: Have you heard from Mr. Teller at all?

Lazar: No.

Goodman: Not one word? In other words, he's done nothing at all?

Lazar: No.

Goodman: You said we're nowhere near being able to have an anti-matter reactor?

Lazar: No, not at all. The first thing we'll come up with when we toy with that some more is -- and there's already been talk of it -- is an anti-matter weapon. Unfortunately, that's the easiest thing to produce. First we'll see that before we'll see potential useful uses.

Goodman: I was talking to Bob Lazar off the air, and Bob is a jet car driver. That's how he relaxes, doing 350 miles per hour.

Roger: Are the nine disks quite different in appearance?

Lazar: Yeah, they're all completely different in appearance.

Roger: Are they then perhaps from different star systems?

Lazar: Could be.

Roger: You said the one you looked at, the Sport Model, was from Reticulum, right?

Lazar: That's what I READ.

Roger: So that has the gravity propulsion system. But then some of the others may have some other type of propulsion system?

Lazar: I was told that the reactors are all similar in them [the crafts], and from that I just assume that the propulsion system is the same. But it is possible that the other ones have different propulsion systems, yeah.

Roger: How many light years from Earth to Reticulum?

Lazar: 32, 33, 34, somewhere around there.

Roger: They must get away from Earth before they amplify these gravitational systems, do they not?

Lazar: They don't HAVE to, but it has to be a line of sight where they can move to.

Roger: In other words, it wouldn't have any effect on the Earth even though it were close to it when they turned it on?

Lazar: No.

Roger: Where do the aliens fit into religion? They must say something about it. I heard that they had a [bearing] on us through religion, perhaps through colonization.

Lazar: I've read some about that. You know, I don't want to go into that because that's going to upset everybody.

Caller: What is the top speed of the craft?

Lazar: It's tough to say a top speed because to say speed you have to compare distance and time. And when you're screwing around with time and distorting it, you can no longer judge a velocity. They're not traveling in a linear mode where they just fly and cover a certain distance in a certain time. That's the real definition of speed. They're bending and distorting space and then essentially snapping it back with the craft, so the distances they can travel are phenomenal -- in little or no time. So speed has little bearing.

Caller: Is the laser part of their technology or their flying speed?

Lazar: No, I haven't seen anything along that line.

Caller: Is Rockwell involved with that?

Lazar: Not that I've seen.

Pistol: You've mentioned anti-gravity generator and anti-matter generator. Are they different?

Lazar: It's not a gravity generator; it's a gravity amplifier. I get tongue-twisted all too often.

The anti-matter reactor provides the power for the craft and the basic low-amplitude gravitational wave, which is too low of an amplitude to do anything. It's piped into the gravity amplifiers, which are found at the bottom of the craft. There it's amplified into an extremely powerful wave, and that's what the craft is flown on. But there is an anti-matter reactor: that's what provides the power.

Roger Nelson, KBAY-Radio San Francisco announcer: Last time I asked Bob Lazar about the hyper-light propulsion systems he had seen, he said the crafts have hyper-light capabilities -- beyond the speed of light. Do you know anyone in our government or who worked on the craft who might be from Earth who has taken those craft and flown past the speed of light to other galaxies?

Lazar: I don't, and I don't know if they have been used for that.

Nelson: Is there any way to find how many of our guys on particular programs have gone to space, what they're learning, exactly where they are now, and whether or not there's any tie-in with the Alternative Three Escape-Earth Plan that supposedly the Government leaders are stirring up now. Is there any place that you know of that this information can be found?

Lazar: I imagine, if any of that is in fact true, it would be found in the midst of S-4 or 51 down there. But how to contact those guys and actually get them to talk is a feat not yet attained.

Nelson: What is it you are now doing now that they have cut you off at the knees?

Lazar: I do other scientific research and produce, design, and repair alpha radiation detection equipment.

Nelson: A number of copies of these broadcasts and the show on Channel 8 and all the other stuff has been getting around, perhaps even internationally. Has anybody bothered you since you went public?

Lazar: Other than the sily little things that have been done, no, nothing, nothing big to be concerned about.

Nelson: Are we going to see you at any of these things like the January 7th conference ["An Evening With Bill Cooper," Showboat Hotel Sports Pavilion, Las Vegas, Nevada, 5:00 p.m. - 8:00 p.m., $15 per person], or other symposiums in the future?

Lazar: I don't think so, no.

Nelson: Well look, I think you're a very brave man. With that kind of an onus on your head, it takes a lot of courage to keep coming back to the airwaves. I stand up and cheer as one.

Caller: How do your magnetohydrodynamics studies relate to the hot spots in the earth's magnetic flux, and does that relate to the deep-hole theory, the Soviet Union's plan?

Lazar: I don't know what the Soviet Union's plan was. I looked at it from a power point of view, as producing on a large scale plasma-generated energy in a power-plant situation, or producing something that would retrofit -- like a coal-fired plant that has a lot of waste heat and high-energy plasma.

Caller: The question is, are you experimenting using the earth's flux?

Lazar: No. There's stand-alone high-energy magnets that I use.

Caller: What is the atomic weight of 115?

Lazar: I hate even to guess. I know it because we've written it down because we've calculated it, but I really don't remember.

Caller: Can you give us a ballpark?

Lazar: No, 'cause I'd be wrong! Just like if I gave a ballpark on the gravitational wave frequency -- and that's really bugging the hell out of me.

There were three things, as a matter of fact, that for some reason I've developed a mental block on. I'll have to call Billy, and then he can announce it on the air. I'll just call him and then he can relay it to everyone.

New Caller: I'd like to stand up and cheer for Bob Lazar! It does take a lot of courage, and it's about time somebody stepped forward with some information that's being kept from us for so long.

How long do you think it took them to make their journey here, using their methods of propulsion?

Lazar: An extremely short time. I'd hesitate to say, but I don't think you're even looking at days.

Caller: Is that because of this gravity lines-of-force thing or because time stands still for them and it really does take a long time but they don't know it because time stands still?

Lazar: No, they're actually traveling almost IN-BETWEEN time because of the way that they distort time and space. So that they're traveling vast distances without the incrementation of time. The time would be very, very little. Days is probably -- I'm way off saying that, too. But I hate to say something and be really far off.

Caller: Could these aliens be robots and not actually be native beings from that galaxy?

Lazar: I imagine it's possible. Who knows what actually flew the craft, whether or not aliens have ever been in Area S-4 down there, but it's possible that some automated creature flew them. Who knows?

Goodman: You made a statement when he asked how long it took them to get here, and when you were inside the spacecraft itself you didn't see any sleeping quarters. So perhaps they just start in the morning and they're here in the afternoon; it's that simple as far as OUR time goes.

Lazar: If it even takes that long.

Barbara: When your hypnotherapist, Layne Keck, talked on the air about you, did you request that?

Lazar: That he talk about me?

Barbara: Uh huh.

Lazar: No, George Knapp requested that, and then Layne called me to find out if it would be okay, and I said yeah, go ahead.

Barbara: Well, I called the office and that was what I was told, and it didn't seem quite --

Lazar: That I requested Layne to go on? No.

Barbara: That's what the person in the office said.

How was your experience there with him? How did you feel about your experience?

Lazar: As far as what? How I got along with Layne?

Barbara: No. As far as how you felt comfortable with going back to some unpleasant experiences.

Lazar: The emotions came up when you're under hypnosis, and that part wasn't exactly pleasant.

Barbara: How do you feel about it today?

Lazar: I feel better. At the time, it wasn't very pleasant. But in general, just being under hypnosis is a really good feeling.

Barbara: You have the videotape of that?

Lazar: Yeah.

Barbara: It's in your possession?

Lazar: I don't want to say where it is, but I know where it is.

Barbara: I'm going to be doing that because I was with him. So for my own personal information, I just wanted to do that, because I have good aliens, bad aliens, you know, it runs in my family. And there's an extreme reason why I'm going to be doing this, so I wanted to clarify that and try to make myself . . .Although I can do it on my own, I won't go deeper than a certain point.

New Caller: Is there any limit on the distance a spaceship can travel. Can it actually travel out of our galaxy to the Andromeda galaxy? How far can 223 grams of Element 115 take you?

Lazar: I really don't know. From what I understand, the actual consumption of the element is very low; I imagine it is possible with enough [junk] made to travel to another galaxy.

Caller: I assume the gravity wave is more powerful than the gamma wave, correct?

Lazar: Than the GAMMA wave?

Caller: Or the spectral wave? What's the limit on light waves with the 10 billion light years or something -- how far light can travel?

Lazar: A limit as far as what? It depends on the interaction: the gravitational fields the beam passes through, the photons pass through, and so on and so forth, so there's no real limit at true dead space.

As I said last time, and only one person took advantage of it, if anyone does have any questions they want to ask me, they can write in care of this station. A person called earlier and wanted a copy of that newspaper article. I have no problem in copying that and sending it to him. So just write to the station, whatever the address is.

=================================================================

End of File

-- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: uuwest!spies!apple!agate!ucbvax!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: INFO: Robert Lazar - First knowledge - Paranet messages Keywords: Robert Lazar - UFO - Area51 Message-ID: <1991Jul4.020322.15458@bilver.uucp> Date: 4 Jul 91 02:03:22 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 605

---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. ---------------------------------------------------------------------

The following are some of the first messages that appeared on the Paranet UFO network regarding Robert Lazar.

----Begin Included Text ---------------------------------------------

Message #2505 "PN: UFO" Date: 11-Nov-89 03:25 From: Michael Corbin To: All Subj: For Immediate Release Next Reply is Message #2506

November 10, 1989

ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO)--This evening saw perhaps an unprecedented event in UFOlogy. KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, Nevada has been airing a UFO special during the evening news which began on Monday dealing with the UFO mystery and cover-up. The series, which has been covered by ParaNet, began its coverage with a history of UFOs beginning in the late 1940s and moving forward through the numerous sighting reports to the cattle mutilations, which was aired last evening. As promised at the close of last evening's show, George Knapp, a news anchorman for Channel 8 in Vegas, stated that a scientific person would be featured on tonight's program who has claimed to work at Area 51, the government's super-secret test range at Nellis AFB in Nevada. Indeed, quite a story was told by Robert Lazar, a physicist who claimed that he had worked on a project at Area 51 involving flying disks provided by alien intelligences. Over the last year, ParaNet has carried stories relating to possible involvement with the government in projects of this nature at the Nevada test site. Up to now, the stories have been of a very speculative nature. Although the material presented by Robert Lazar remains unconfirmed, enough information has been disclosed that ParaNet's large investigative staff in Nevada has started an intensive investigation into this release. It is interesting to note that Robert Lazar is an associate of John Lear and has been providing this information to Lear over the last few months. Lear has appeared on Channel 8 on numerous occasions together will Bill Cooper discussing Lear's famous 'ET Hypothesis.' According to Lear, Lazar was instrumental in providing Lear with locations overlooking the test site which would provide a good view of the objects as they flew into the night sky. Lear attempted to shoot video of an object as it maneuvered through the night sky during last summer, however nothing was captured on the tape of a substantive nature. Lear also relates that his group was harassed by a Lincoln County sheriff following his attempts to take the pictures. Below is a transcript of the program that aired this evening. All paragraphs out of quotes are the narrator of the segment. We were as accurate as possible on the transcription, however there are a couple of places where comments were edited out due to inability to understand what was being said. Further reports will be provided as information becomes available. =================================================================

We've been working on the story for some time....UFO researchers claim that there is a secret government within our government. Now this may be hard to believe coming from the UFO perspective, but we have learned that Watergate and the Iran Contra scandal that factions within our government can and do pursue their own hidden agendas outside of the law; outside the control of the Congress or the knowledge of the American people. This is exactly the type of operation that we hear about tonight. It's a chilling scenario with worldwide implications that may have its roots right here [Las Vegas, Nevada]. Area 51, that mysterious corner of the Nevada Test Site, is no longer considered a secret. The fact that secretive things go on here isn't evident; even to the Soviets who make daily spy flights over the facility to take a peek at what's going on. These photos, never before shown in public, are about as close as anyone will ever come to seeing what the place looks like again. The dry bed at Groom Lake, the corrugated buildings, a three-mile long runway and some highly sophisticated radar and detection equipment. Its been known by many names over the years -- Dreamland; The Ranch; The Skunk Works. If ever there was a place to test the secret new technology, this is it. And that's exactly what has been done here for decades. Area 51 is where Francis Gary Powers and the other U-2 pilots were trained in the 50s. And, where the U-2 itself was developed. The SR-71 spy plane that spotted Soviet missiles in Cuba in the early 60s were also developed at 51. 51 is where Stealth technology was nurtured, where Star Wars devices are still tested, and where all manner of CIA [unknown] business has been plotted and refined. It's the perfect place for secret things, but of course, that's no secret. 51 is ringed by the forbidden vastness of the Nevada test site; by the looming Groom Mountain and by sparsely populated desert expanses. But the people that do live out here have no love lost for the military, but they're conservative, patriotic and they mind their own business.

Interviewer questioning a nearby resident of Area 51: "Ever see something that you can't explain?" Resident: "Sure, lots of times." Interviewer: "Care to elaborate?" Resident: "No." (Laughter).

On any given night at the Rachel Bar and Grill, you might find three or four people who work at Area 51. They are among the flowing Budweiser and the cowboy hats. You might find them, but they are not going to talk to you. Not about the things that they have seen over the mountain. A steady trickle of curiosity- seekers flows through here; strangers, drawn by strange stories of lights in the night sky. Their questions also go unanswered. No one who has worked at Dreamland has ever publicly acknowledged what so many people have suspected for years: That alien technology is being tested in the Nevada desert. The speculation first surfaced in documents obtained by UFO researchers. Documents about something called Project Aquarius. The document allegedly prepared for an organization called MJ-12, states that a program to fly recovered alien spacecraft was established in 1972 and is continuing in Nevada. The National Security Agency has confirmed it does have a Project Aquarius but denies that it has anything to do with flying saucers. NSA will not say what Project Aquarius is. Speculation was heightened in 1984, when the Air Force seized nearly 90,000 acres around Groom Lake. The action was, by most accounts, illegal. During Congressional hearings about the land grab, Congressman John Siberling grilled the military about the legal authority used in the action and was told the authority was at a much, much higher level than the Air Force. Siberling asked what authority is higher than the laws of the United States? The Air Force official said he could respond, but only in a closed briefing. In 1987, when the Air Force sought to renew its stranglehold on the Groom range, news articles once again mentioned the talk about alien spacecraft and subsequent articles in national magazines quoted un-named sources about things of alien origin flying in Nevada. Things that would make film-maker George Lucas drool. Despite the speculation, no one who knew Area 51 from the inside ever talked publicly about the saucer story.

Bob Lazar: "Well, there's several uh, actually nine uh flying saucers, flying disks that are out there of extraterrestrial origin." The live interview with the shadowy "Dennis" drew international attention. Portions were broadcast by radio in six European countries, and in a nationally televised TV special in Japan. Despite numerous inquiries and "feelers," "Dennis" has remained anonymous until now. His real name is Robert Lazar. A young scientist with eclectic interests. The choice of "Dennis" was an inside joke -- he says that's the name of his superior at Groom Lake. It wasn't a joke to Dennis.

Lazar: "He called right after and said, 'Do you have any idea what we're going to do to you now?' and I said no, and he hung up the phone."

Lazar's story is by any standard, fantastic. He says he's telling it in order to protect himself. He said he was hired to work in area called S-4 which is a few miles south of Groom Lake. At S-4, he says, are flying saucers, anti-matter reactors and other working examples of technology that is seemingly beyond human capabilities.

Lazar: "Right. This stuff came from somewhere else. I know it is hard to believe, but it is there and I saw it. I know what the current state-of-the-art is in physics and it it can't be done."

Checking out Lazar's credentials proved to be a difficult task. He says he holds degrees in physics and electronics, but the schools that we contacted say they've never heard of him. He says he also worked as a physicist at Los Alamos National Labs where he worked with one of the world's largest particle beam accelerators, a half-mile long 'behemoth' capable of generating seven-hundred million volts. Los Alamos officials told us they have no record of Robert Lazar ever working there. They were either mistaken or were lying. A 1982 phone book from the Lab lists Lazar right there among the other scientists and technicians. A 1982 news clipping from the Los Alamos newspaper profiled Lazar and his interest in jet cars. It, too, mentioned his employment at the Lab as a physicist. We called Los Alamos again, and an exasperated official told us he still had no records on Lazar. EG&G, which is where Lazar says he was interviewed for the job at S-4, also has no record. It's as if someone has made him disappear.

Lazar: "Well, they're trying to make me look non-existent to the places that I called...." Interviewer: "Explain. Called where?" Lazar: "Well, the schools that I went to; the hospital that I was born at; past jobs, and nothing comes up with my name on it."

He smiles, but out of futility, knowing the whole thing must sound ridiculous. According to Lazar, his employer was the United States Navy. He says he and other government employees would gather near EG&G, fly to Groom Lake, then a very few people would get into a bus with blacked out or no windows and drive to S-4.

Interviewer: "You get off the bus, what do you see?" Lazar: "A very interesting building. Its got a slope of probably about 30 degrees which are hangar doors, and it has textured paint on it, but it looks like sand. It's made to look like the side of the mountain that it is in, whether it's to disguise it from satellite photographs or what...."

He says he was never told exactly what he would be working on, but figured it had something to do with advanced propulsion. On his first day he was told to read a series of briefings, and immediately realized how advanced the propulsion really was.

Lazar: "The power source is an anti-matter reactor. They run gravity amplifiers. There is actually two parts to the drive mechanism. It's a bizarre technology. There is no physical hookups between any of the systems in there. They use gravity as a wave using wave guides that look like microwaves."

It took awhile, Lazar says, before he actually saw one of the flying disks, however there were hints everywhere.

Lazar: "Right. They had a poster, and it looked like a commercial poster, like it was lithographed, like you could buy it at K-Mart or someplace, but they were all over the place and it had the disk that I coined the term 'the floor model' which lifted off the ground about 3 feet out at the area, in the Dry Lakes area, and the caption on it said 'They're here.' These posters were all over the place."

Later, he got to see the real thing.

Lazar: "When I was led in, it was the first time that I saw the 'floor model' in the hangar sitting down, and I was told they could have walked me in the front door but they purposely wanted to walk me by it. I was told not to say anything and to keep my eyes forward and walk past the disk to the office area. And I did. And as we went by it, I just kinda stuck my hands on it, just to run it alongside the thing and uh ....After that I got to see actually lift off the ground and operate." Interviewer: "You actually got to see more than one?" Lazar: "Yeah. The hangars are all connected together. There are large bay doors between each one. There were nine total that I saw, each one being different. Like they had the assortment pack."

Security at S-4 was oppressive Lazar said, and his superiors used fear and intimidation almost as a brainwashing tool.

Lazar: "They did everything but physically hurt me." Interviewer: "They put a gun to your head?" Lazar: "Yeah." Interviewer: "You mean they actually put a gun to your head?" Lazar: "They did that even in the original security briefing. Guards there with M-16s. Guys there slamming their fingers into my chest, screaming into my ear, they were pointing weapons at me. Like I said, it's not a good place to work."

That fear factor would surface later. Lazar agreed to undergo a polygraph exam as part of this report. Polygrapher Ron Clay asked about the technology that Lazar had seen.

Polygrapher: "Did you knowingly lie when you had actually seen anti-gravity propulsion in operation?" Lazar: "No."

The results of this exam were inconclusive. Lazar appeared to be truthful on one test; deceitful on a second. Clay recommended that a second examiner be brought in. Polygrapher Terry Tabernetti (sp?) runs a corporate security operation and is a former Los Angeles police officer. He put Lazar through four tests and concluded there were no attempts to deceive. Tabernetti sent his test results to a third polygrapher who agreed the results appeared truthful. The charts were then sent to a fourth examiner who did not agree suggesting that Lazar might be relating information he'd learned from someone else. The polygraphers concurred and decided they would not issue a final statement on truthfulness until more specific testing can be conducted. And that's where it stands. Tabernetti believes the difficulty in determining Lazar's truthfulness stems from the fear that was drilled into him.

Lazar: "Well, I am telling the truth. I've tried to prove that. What's going on up there could be the most important event in history. You're talking about contact, physical contact and proof from another planet, another system, another intelligence. Thats got to be the biggest event in history, period. And, it's real and it's there. And I had an extremely small part in it. I'm convinced that what I saw is absolute proof of that. There is no way that we could have created those disks. There is no way we could have made the disks, the power supplies, anything that goes with it."

Lazar says he has no intention of going on any UFO lecture circuit. He is not looking to do any additional interviews. In fact, he was not too crazy about doing this one. He did it after certain unfavorable things started happening in his life, and he did it because he feels that whoever is running the show up at S- 4 is perpetrating a fraud on the American people and the scientific community.

=================================================================

Message #3969 "PN: UFO" Date: 12-Nov-89 01:48 From: Michael Corbin To: All Subj: Correction to the Area 51 transcript

SUBJECT: ADDENDUM/CORRECTIONS RE 11/10/89 KLAS-TV/NEVADA TEST SITE/AREA 51 UFO REPORT

My introduction to the partial transcript of the program contains certain presumptions -- rather than evidence -- which may be misleading. These presumptions were based on prior SEPARATE KLAS-TV telecasts with Lear and with a "Dennis" -- now revealed as Robert Lazar.

> It is interesting to note that Robert Lazar is an associate of > John Lear and has been providing this information to Lear over > the last few months.

The extent to which Lazar has interfaced with Lear is unknown. In fact, Lear appears to have had a number of Nevada Test Site sources, any one of whom could have provided him with the Area 51 information.

> According to Lear, Lazar was instrumental in providing Lear > with locations overlooking the test site which would provide > a good view of the objects as they flew into the night sky.

In fact, it is unknown who -- if anyone -- steered Lear to the specific locations overlooking the Nevada Test Site. Lear has made no statement regarding Lazar in this regard.

> As promised at the close of last evening's show, George Knapp, > a news anchorman for Channel 8 in Vegas, stated that a > scientific person would be featured on tonight's program > who has claimed to work at Area 51, the government's > super-secret test range at Nellis AFB in Nevada.

Rather than being situated at Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas, Area 51 lies in the northeast corner of the U.S. Government's Nevada Test Site at Mercury, Nevada, which is 65 miles north of Nellis Air Force Base.

Mike

Message #4002 "PN: UFO" Date: 14-Nov-89 03:22 From: Robert Klinn To: All Subj: Area 51: The Nevada Test Site's Supersecret UFO Base? Next Reply is Message #4023

With two top local TV stations here in Las Vegas -- KLAS-TV and KTNV-TV -- carrying deadly serious news reports this week of real alien UFOs POSSIBLY being flown out of the supersecret Area 51, that portion of the U.S. Government's Nevada Test Site which the Air Force refuses to acknowledge as even existing, the situation here appears like The War of the Worlds. Disinformation? Reality? What next? At KTNV-TV, photographer Clay Downey and reporter Glen Meek are tracking down the nature of the on-going projects at Area 51. Off-air, Meek says he has discovered that Area 51 is comprised of four sections. Of those, he has learned the type of activity occurring at two of them. He has been having much difficulty learning the type of activity occurring at the other two. KTNV will broadcast reports this week at 5:30 p.m. Wed., Thurs, & Fri. In a videotape presented by KLAS-TV newsman George Knapp, a UFO performs abrupt manuevers over what may be the "S-4" portion of Area 51 at the Test Site. Knapp's final report will be broadcast tonight, Tuesday at approximately 6:15 p.m. Knapp's star witness is scientist Robert Lazar, who drew a picture of the craft he saw operating at the base. Lazar emphatically claims these are alien craft -- not human-made devices. Lazar says at least one UFO appeared to have been ruptured by a projectile. War of the Worlds? Robert B. Klinn --- QuickBBS v2.04 * Origin: -=<ParaNet Alpha(sm)>=- Denver, CO (303)232-6115 (1:104/422)

Message #4024 "PN: UFO" Date: 15-Nov-89 01:55 From: Michael Corbin To: All Subj: Installment on Dreamland continued.

November 13, 1989

ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO) -- In our continuing coverage of the remarkable revelations coming out of Las Vegas, Nevada, here is the next installment to the program aired on November 13, 1989 by television station KLAS-TV and George Knapp.

================================================================= News Anchor persons: A former government scientist has alleged that the U.S. military is flying recovered UFOs at a secret base in the Nevada desert. The allegations about the secret facility near the Groom Mountains first surfaced on Eyewitness News on last Friday [November 10, 1989]. Scientist Bob Lazar says that there are at least nine of the flying saucers being tested and that they were not built on Earth. George Knapp has more on the continuation of our series on UFOs.

Lazar: "Yeah. It was obvious it came from somewhere else, uh, other than Earth."

Scientist Bob Lazar was convinced that the technology he saw being tested at a secret base in the Nevada desert is of alien origin, and for Lazar the proof is, at least, partially in the furniture. One of the nine flying disks he says he saw at the base, which was designated S-4, looks exactly like this UFO photographed in Europe [Photo of UFO shown]. Lazar called it the "sport model."

Lazar: "I gave everything names -- the top hat one and you know the jello mold and, uh, the sport model operated without any hitches at all. I mean, it looked new. If I knew what a new flying saucer looked like. One of them looked like it was hit with some sort of a projectile. It had a large hole in the bottom and a large hole in the top with the metal bent out like some sort of, you know, large caliber 4 or 5 inch had gone through it."

Even before he saw the sport model operate, Lazar says, he suspected that the ship came from somewhere else. The realization slapped him in the face the first time he glimpsed the inside of the disk.

Lazar: "I got to look inside and it had really small chairs. I think that was the first confirmation I had. That was just a shocking thing because everytime before that I was able to label it. This is just a little advance that a group of scientists had formed and, you know, they're keeping it secret, and yeah, we could have built a big disk like that, and yeah, that's no problem, and, you know, we could have adapted the use(?) to make it fly, but why does it have little furniture inside? [garbled]. And things began to click together just all too fast."

A few of the disks had been completely dismantled to find out how they worked, Lazar says, but others were fully operational. A Japanese TV network created this animated version of Lazar's story after his first interview with us aired in May [showing video]. Lazar says the dramatization is similar to a test flight he witnessed.

Lazar: "The bottom of it glowed blue and began to hiss like any, like high voltage does on a round sphere. It's my impression that the reason that they're round and have no sharp edges is to contain the high voltage like, uh, if you've seen a high voltage system's insulators -- things are round or else you get a corona discharge. In either case, it began to hiss as in high voltage and it lifted off the ground quietly except for that little hiss in the background, and that stopped as soon as it reached about 20 or 30 feet."

Lazar says the test of the sport model was a short one -- that it made only a few moves before setting back down. He didn't see who was actually flying the craft, but was very impressed, nonetheless.

Lazar: "Well, there's no action reaction system to it. There's no, like in a jet engine, exhaust gas being thrown out -- no propeller, no noise. It's just, for all intents and purposes, magic."

To Lazar's knowledge, the flying disks are not being used, for say, any flights to Jupiter. He said excessive caution and intense secrecy contributed to the plodding pace of the program and were a main source of his disenchantment.

Lazar: "It's just unfair, outright, not to put it in the hands of the overall scientific community. There are people much more capable of dealing with this information, and by this time would have gotten a lot further along than this small select group of people working out in the middle of the desert. They don't even have the facilities, really, to completely analyze what they're dealing with."

Gene Huff: "Well he was being quiet. If he kept me abreast of anything, he kept me abreast of the security checks -- they'd randomly drop by his house. They'd threaten his life; they'd threaten his wife's life. They had done all that so we really didn't converse, I mean, he really was adhering to the program."

Gene Huff is a Las Vegas real estate appraiser. A regular guy who just happens to have a friend in the flying saucer business. He learned about Lazar's S-4 experiences only after a long period. Lazar is anxious for people to know that he didn't just run right out and spill the secrets of the universe, and that some things are properly kept confidential.

Lazar: "I did not believe that this should be a security matter. Some of it, sure. But, just the concept that there's definite proof, and uh, we even have articles from another world, another system, you just can't not tell everyone. A lot of people don't believe that. But, I do."

When he reached what he felt was his bursting point, he took Huff and a few others to the edge of the Groom Mountains to see the flights for themselves. A total of five witnesses on two consecutive weeks managed to dodge security patrols long enough to see the strange glowing object lift above the mountain.

Huff(?): "Uh, it came up above the same mountain. It moved around. It did a step move -- it actually went up in the air like this [showing details with hands] and it hovered then dropped way down then it just floated around and cruised around. It starts coming up the mountain range...."

This home video tape was recorded during one of the trips to the Groom Mountains [showing video tape. A lot of talking....Object in sight....Mention of brightness of the object....]. Admittedly, the tape proves very little by itself because, with the distance and darkness, there are no reference points other than the alleged flying disk, but Lazar's information about the time and location of the test flight proves correct -- not once but twice. That, according to our off-camera interviews with each of the other witnesses. Gene Huff describes his second sighting:

Huff: "Through the telescope we could see an elliptical-shaped light. You can only get so close even with a telescope to a secure facility. Anyway, it came up by us very rapidly. It glowed and glows brighter like a star and we almost got the feeling that it was going to explode, it glowed so brightly. We backed up behind the car then it went down and glowed back up a little bit and then very softly glided back over, back where the mountains where it came up, hovered for awhile, and then that's that....Just like you see in the movies."

Bob Lazar isn't the only person to claim "inside knowledge" of the flying disks at the test site -- he is just the only person to say so publicly. We have communicated with several people who say they know of the saucer program. A technician in a highly sensitive position told us it is "common knowledge among those with high security clearances that recovered alien disks are stored at the Nevada test site." A Las Vegas professional, who once served in the military and was stationed at the test site, said he saw a flying disk land outside the boundaries of Area 51 -- that it was quickly surrounded by security personnel and that he was taken away and debriefed for several hours. A man who once worked at Groom Lake as a technician, at our request, wrote this letter explaining how he inadvertently walked into the wrong hangar and saw what appeared to be a large metallic disk under a tarp. It was being examined by men in lab coats. And, an airman who worked at Nellis at a radar installation says he and his fellow servicemen watched over a period of five nights, unusual objects flying over the Groom Mountains. He says the radar images indicates the objects zoomed into range at speeds of 7,000 miles per hour and then would stop on a dime, and that nothing we have is capable of doing that. The airman says that when word of his sighting got out, he was ordered to turn off his radar sensors for that area and told to keep quiet about the matter because it did not happen. None of this means that the military is actually flying alien spacecraft in the Nevada desert. It could all perhaps be explained as some other secret program. Lazar insists that's not the case. We put the matter to the U.S. Navy, which according to Lazar, is running the saucer show. Four different naval offices were contacted. All denied having any information in their files. The Naval Research Lab said it conducted a thorough search but found "zip." Naval Intelligence said much the same thing, adding, it is not required to create a file where one doesn't exist. A side note: We also requested files on a UFO sighting over Tremonton, Utah in 1952. The Navy spent more than a thousand hours studying film of that sighting -- a fact that's been noted in several publications -- but, for purposes of our request, the Navy couldn't find those files either.

Lazar: "The group that runs this project, whether it really is the Navy or they just say that, apparently these people have executive power -- they don't report to anyone."

Tomorrow, more troubling allegations of the military potential of alien technology.

=================================================================

This file is available on ParaNet as Area51-2.ufo.

End of file

-- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order" Path: uuwest!spies!apple!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: INFO: Chuck Harder interview of George Knapp -LAZAR Keywords: Robert Lazar -UFO - Area51 Message-ID: <1991Jul4.020919.15517@bilver.uucp> Date: 4 Jul 91 02:09:19 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 631

---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)

As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. ---------------------------------------------------------------------

The following file(s) appeared on the Paranet UFO network in the late 1989 to 1990 time period. The following files are on Robert Lazar and are copyrighted by Paranet to insure their integrity. I have not gotten express permission to re-publish them here; however it's my *intent* to make them available for their informational content only.

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This is the Chuck Harder radio interview "For The People" of George Knapp, regarding Robert Lazar.

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DATE OF UPLOAD: December 23, 1989 ORIGIN OF UPLOAD: ParaNet Information Service CONTRIBUTED BY: Chuck Harder/Special Correspondent to ParaNet ======================================================== (C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service All Rights Reserved unless copyrighted by Author. ========================================================

INTERVIEW WITH GEORGE KNAPP OF KLAS-TV (LAS VEGAS, NEVADA) ON NOVEMBER 17, 1989. INTERVIEWED BY CHUCK HARDER, HOST AND MODERATOR OF 'FOR THE PEOPLE' OF THE SUN RADIO NETWORK.

CHUCK HARDER My guest has (now) called in and I'm going to run down who he is and where he's from for a number of reasons, some of them for his own protection. George, are you there...

GEORGE KNAPP Hello Chuck.

CHUCK HARDER Please tell us, you are George Knapp, right...

GEORGE KNAPP That's right.

CHUCK HARDER George, what do you do for a living?

GEORGE KNAPP I'm a journalist with KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, the CBS affiliate here.

CHUCK HARDER So you are a TV newsman...

GEORGE KNAPP Right.

CHUCK HARDER And you work for Channel 8, KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, Nevada...

GEORGE KNAPP Right.

CHUCK HARDER I understand that you have come upon some very interesting information and you've done some special reports, could you tell us about it...?

GEORGE KNAPP Well we just finished a nine-part series -- what may be the longest series that's ever been done on this subject dealing with UFOs.

Our research actually started about two and a half years ago, a fellow named John Lear, the son of the guy who invented the Lear Jet brought some of this information to our attention. In May of this year, Mr. Lear introduced us to a fellow who claims to have worked at a secret base designated S-4...on a top-secret Nevada test site...the fellow said that he worked on flying saucers, that the technology was not from Earth, and we interviewed him live in silhouette in May, the response was incredible...we got response from Japan, parts of that interview aired on radio in Europe, and six different European countries...so we decided with this much interest we might want to take a look at the subject in more depth.

We started doing that and the first thing we found out is that really UFOs have not been given a fair shake by science, by government, by religion and especially by journalism. Millions of people have seen UFOs, millions more believe...I think the latest Gallup poll shows about 70 percent of college-educated Americans believe that there's something to it, but because of the tabloid aspects...'The Girl Who Gives Birth to 52 UFO Babies' -- kind of things in the National Enquirer, people have shied away from it...Serious people have shied away. Scientists, although they might be interested in searching the universe for radio signals really don't want to look in their own back yard -- they can't get grants...people would laugh at them. Journalism - - the coverage is generally condescending and quirky, especially by the networks, as in the coverage of this UFO that supposedly landed in the USSR, people making fun of it...so, we figured out that millions of people want to know as Roy Neary, the guy in the 'Close Encounters' movie said, 'What's going on?' So we started investigating it. The focal point of the story being this fellow who said he worked at S-4. We broke his identity last Friday. His name is Bob Lazar, he is a former scientist who worked at Los Alamos National Labs, he is a physicist...we did a lot of checking on him and found interestingly enough that his life was disappearing around him. In other words we called Los Alamos Labs and they said they never heard of him. We called MIT where he says he went to school and they had never heard of him. We called for his Birth records and they had disappeared...as if someone was trying to make him a non-person. We did however confirm some of the information that he had given us...we found newspaper articles from Los Alamos indicating that he had indeed worked there...we found an old telephone book from the lab with his name in it, which gave him a certain amount of credibility in our eyes. The story he tells is an incredible one. He was hired to work at this area called S-4 on the test site, he was flown up to a place called Groom Lake -- taken by bus with no windows to S-4...the base is built almost to look like its part of the desert with sand covered hanger doors, he goes inside and he starts reading these briefing papers dealing with UFOs! Pictures of UFOs on the walls, pictures of aliens, autopsy reports on alien bodies...things of this nature -- he's pretty amazed. Then he sees the discs. He says there are nine of the discs up there, they are powered by an anti-matter reactor which produces its own gravitational field...technology that does not exist on this planet, and the interesting thing...he thought for a while that perhaps it was just an advanced secret scientific project that our government is pursuing until he looked inside one of the discs and noticed the small furniture...all the chairs were built like for children...and then things started coming together for him. Are you with me Chuck?

CHUCK HARDER I'm listening.

GEORGE KNAPP Er, I'm not sure how much detail you want me to go in on...

CHUCK HARDER Oh I think you ought to keep going.

GEORGE KNAPP Well, this fellow was up there for only a few months. And it was a rough place for him to work...the security was so hard and he was being harassed at home, his phones being tapped...plus he's on to what he thinks are the secrets of the universe...he starts to tell other people about it, confide with close friends.

CHUCK HARDER Ummmmmm.....

GEORGE KNAPP He had the date of a couple of tests and on two consecutive weekends he took people up into the desert outside of the boundaries of area S-4, and they video taped the saucers...what looks like a saucer coming over the mountains!

CHUCK HARDER Wow...

GEORGE KNAPP We showed that video as well...

CHUCK HARDER Uh-huh....

GEORGE KNAPP Five different people that we interviewed that had gone up there confirmed the same story...we also had confirmation of other bits of his story from other people, a former security guard who worked up there...who said he had seen the saucers, a former technician...

CHUCK HARDER By the way, excuse me, I have some letters from some people postmarked from that area, one inside of a base, who tells me what you're saying is true. Keep going.

GEORGE KNAPP Ah, we also found a Nellis Airman who had been on radar duty at Nellis airbase which is here just south of the area that this fellow is talking about...he reported numerous times seeing...

CHUCK HARDER George, excuse me...let me do the half hour news break, I want you to tell your story, I want America to hear it...please stand by.

>>>>At this point the SUN RADIO NETWORK runs the half hour news headlines and sports audio package from UPI<<<<

(After news the guest is re-introduced for listeners who may have just tuned in...)

CHUCK HARDER How many reports did you do, George?

GEORGE KNAPP We did nine total in this series.

CHUCK HARDER Ok, now at the time we went to news on the half hour you told me that a scientist named Bob Lazar...

GEORGE KNAPP Right...

CHUCK HARDER Ok, came to you and came to the public and apparently was concerned for his safety because he wanted to tell America or get news out that - yes, the Federal Government has nine saucers, and yes they are near...it's near Nellis, is it not?

GEORGE KNAPP Yes.

CHUCK HARDER Cause I have letters from people who are at Nellis. Some of which don't want to give their name, some of which gave their name, I have the postmarks. Tell us now if you would, start the story from the fact that the gentleman has revealed that there are nine of these things. We're listening and so is America.

GEORGE KNAPP Well, we wanted to try to confirm as much of his story as possible from other sources of course, so we started looking for other people who might have knowledge of what's going on up there...as I mentioned, I found a former security guard who said that he had seen the saucers up there, I found a former technician who said that he had walked into a room inadvertently and saw one under a tarp, we found a Nellis airman who had worked in radar and said that basically he and his fellow airman has seen these things flying over the Groom Mountains at speeds up to 7,000 miles per hour on radar...these things would stop on a dime, so the guy knew that this is not your average airplane that's doing this. We also interviewed the other people who went with Lazar up on two consecutive weeks, they test them on Wednesdays for some reason, and videotaped the tests, saw these things flying over the mountains and confirmed his story as well.

We put these questions to the Navy, who Lazar says he worked for up there -- we made Freedom of Information Act requests for information about the various specific programs he mentioned, of course the Navy denied having any information on the programs. Of course in those requests we also asked for other information about UFOs, stuff the Navy has already released and they denied having that information as well -- so I don't put a lot of faith in the FOIA requests.

CHUCK HARDER In other words, what you're saying is that your organization which is KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, plus many other UFO research groups have uncovered many UFO documents that the government says, 'Yeah, we got them and yeah it's true'...but then when you ask them again they say, 'No, we don't have them!'

GEORGE KNAPP Exactly...that's exactly correct!

CHUCK HARDER I understand from MUFON and many other groups that there are somewhere from four to seven thousand documents that prove that...yes these things exist, copies of the documents are in private hands, then you go and ask the government and they say, 'Well, er, no we don't remember...'

GEORGE KNAPP The government says that they have done these studies that say that UFOs are no threat to national security, they're either psychological aberrations, which means that people are nuts when they see them, that's what they feed the public...but behind the scenes they are very concerned about the national security implications of UFOs that land at nuclear missile bases and can't be caught, things of that nature. So the government from what I've read is very concerned about the phenomena and doesn't really understand it. The government on the other hand has outright lied concerning what information it does have...the CIA for example says it doesn't collect any information on UFOs...well that's just patently not true. We have documents from the CIA, a lot of it is blacked out, which mentions UFO studies by the CIA, UFO research, CIA-UFO experts, agency personnel who are monitoring the phenomenon, so they have lied to us all along. I didn't expect to get any confirmation regarding what Lazar has to say, but had to give it a try anyway.

CHUCK HARDER Before we went to the half-hour break you said that when he looked inside one of these discs there were little furniture, give me some information...

GEORGE KNAPP Well he feels that they were bringing him along, giving him a piece at a time. He would see a saucer one day, the next he would see the hanger doors open and see all nine of them...after that he got to see the inside of the thing. He also got to see a demonstration of it. He was told to stand back and watch this...and the thing lights up real bright...I guess the power that's produced is incredible, you need to produce your own gravitational field and it raised up, he wasn't sure who was flying it or was it remotely or what. He watched it raise up, did a couple of maneuvers and sat back down. Part of the reason he came forward, not to spill the secrets of the universe or the government, but because the research that's being done up there is being handled in a clumsy fashion. If they have had these for as long as forty years, which is what he believes, they haven't come to far in trying to understand them. Some of the discs he said he saw up there were being taken apart, kind of a reverse archaeology process to figure out how they worked. Some of the research going on up there is aimed at trying to duplicate the things that these machines can do using earth technologies and earth materials and he says it just can't be done. The key to the flying of the things is something he calls 'Element 115'...it does not exist on our periodic charts, he believes that wherever it came from its a naturally occurring element, he says we have 500 pounds of this stuff up there, just a little tiny sliver of it produces incredible amounts of power. Its the '115' that we will not be able to duplicate so he thinks...one of the reasons that he came forward is because scientists all over the world are working, putting their energy into trying to master the secrets of gravity and the secrets of anti-matter technology and here we've got it up there and they're not doing a very good job with it -- this little batch of scientists hidden out in the desert are trying to figure it out and not doing a very good job...

CHUCK HARDER But this is kind of common with the United States government...I read a tremendous amount of material...I read a tremendous amount of material...I read five newspapers a day and I'll find where one group in one part of the country is working on a project and I'll get a clipping where another group is working on the same project, I've contacted them and they don't know of each other!

GEORGE KNAPP Yeah, Yeah -- that's exactly right...he said the compartmentalization up there was very severe as well so that nobody had the full picture -- I guess so nobody could spill the beans as he has been trying to do.

CHUCK HARDER Alright, what does he feel the public should know and what does he feel should be done?

GEORGE KNAPP Well, he's not on a campaign, what he really wanted to do was to save his own life. He started having some problems when it became obvious to his employers that he was telling someone else about this.

CHUCK HARDER We're talking about Bob Lazar now...

GEORGE KNAPP Bob Lazar...his phone being tapped, people visiting him, calling him up with a single word message -- DEAD -- then they hang up! He tried to arrange meetings with his former supervisor and the meetings didn't come off, he says somebody took a shot at him on the freeway...obviously he realizes that if they really wanted to kill him, they could. Maybe perhaps they were just trying to shut him up. He feels that what is going on up there is a crime against the entire scientific community...not only the American people because we don't know what's going on and we haven't been told alien technology exists, but also against the scientific community. So, what else can I tell ya?

CHUCK HARDER What does he say about the aliens?

GEORGE KNAPP He's reluctant to talk about that, apparently he did see some aliens up there...

CHUCK HARDER Excuse me, are you telling me there were live aliens?

GEORGE KNAPP Yeah, he's kind of sketchy on the details of that, and I don't think I should go much further on that...part of the discussion until I can talk to him, but he has indications that there are aliens up there, at least one...

CHUCK HARDER Live?

GEORGE KNAPP Yeah, it's pretty wild, I know and I didn't include that in our reports because I couldn't confirm any thing of that nature, I couldn't find anyone else who had seen them up there so...

CHUCK HARDER What did they look like?

GEORGE KNAPP Your classic Grey...the little big-headed almond eyed-grey skinned being...the same ones in the classic descriptions of the UFO literature...he's kind of squeamish talking about it as well because it sounds so crazy...

CHUCK HARDER I don't think it's crazy at all, there was an article, let me digress for a moment, there was an article yesterday on the front page of The Wall Street Journal where the FDA that stopped all of the grapes from Chile last March...apparently somebody laced two of the grapes with cyanide a couple of hours before the FDA, stumbled on them and it was an inside job apparently while the grapes were in the inspection station...and it was not done on the way, so somebody's lying there -- we're talking of two little grapes that almost bankrupted the country of Chile! If two little grapes...and such a story hits the front page of The Wall Street Journal about the questions about the truthfulness and what happened with the FDA, what about this...how would this ever get out if they would cover up a story about TWO LITTLE GRAPES?!

GEORGE KNAPP Well, I tell you we asked the question, the obvious question, if this is true; how can the government keep this a secret all this time? A story this big -- the government leaks like a sieve on other things, how could the coverup exist?

CHUCK HARDER Oh, I'll tell you...

GEORGE KNAPP To which Lazar responds, this is the easiest...and he asked the question to his superiors up there, it's the easiest thing in the world to keep a secret because if it does come out, little bits and pieces, who's going to believe it?

CHUCK HARDER Exactly...let me, you remember the Condon Report, do you not?

GEORGE KNAPP Yes...

CHUCK HARDER For those who are listening, I got into this investigation because I kept getting letters from our listeners who said, Chuck you ought to investigate this...we've investigated many things in the past such as the GM Diesel coverup, we're working on a pay phone coverup, we've done things with Ralph Nader...and so on. So we started buying the books and contacting UFO organizations. I then found that there was a guy named Phil Klass who was always there...somehow he as always there and he said that everything was bunk! And of course, he works for the Aviation Week magazine which is of course is the mouthpiece for the Military/Industrial complex and they certainly wouldn't want this technology to be out! I was also amazed when I saw the stealth bomber (tests) live on CNN one Saturday and a small plane landed at the same place, (runway) do you remember that...?

GEORGE KNAPP Yes...

CHUCK HARDER My question is: If the Stealth Bomber was so super-secret, how could a man and his children land their little tiny plane on the same runway at a super-secret airforce base? How could he have pierced the radar and fighter jets and so forth? My feeling was, probably the Stealth Bomber was obsolete and nobody was watching!

GEORGE KNAPP Yeah, I'd have to agree with you, because the security up there...the only thing that comes out of that place is what they want out of it.

CHUCK HARDER So what your talking about then, since the Condon Committee, Phil Klass and all the of the spokespeople who are supposed to know everything, what your saying is the ridicule factor...if Billy Bob sees a flying saucer and even has a photo of it and takes it to the paper, everybody laughs at him!

GEORGE KNAPP There are actual documents the government has released (Under Freedom of Information Act) that show it has an active program that started back in the fifties...the CIA even used the term DEBUNKING, there were discussions about using Walt Disney to produce cartoons that made fun of people who had seen flying saucers...they were going to bring Arthur Godfrey in as their spokesperson. Phil Klass as you mentioned, he's explained away UFO sightings seen by thousands of people as the constellation ORION, when you can only see ORION from the other side of the planet.

CHUCK HARDER Uh huh...

GEORGE KNAPP He uses things like Ball Lightning, plasma balls to explain the sightings where plasma balls only last for a few seconds and the examples that he is trying to explain occur in cloudless skies where there is no lightning around. You mention the Condon report, that's a perfect example of the kinds of things that the government has done in the past, they commission a study, it's supposed to be THE STUDY, but the guy they hire to run the thing, Edward Condon had before he even started, that there was nothing to UFOs, the government should get out of it, and he also said at one point that the authors of UFO books should be HORSEWHIPPED! One of the explanations that came from the Condon Committee witnessed by several people, they described it as, a natural phenomena so rare that it has never been seen before or since! I don't think this kind of a thing is an accident!

CHUCK HARDER Ok, the Soviet Union and Tass gave their report (of a UFO) and from what I have heard there are different kinds of aliens, some have been coming here for years and years and it's nothing new...

GEORGE KNAPP Right...

CHUCK HARDER Why is it in some parts of the world (now) they report other types of humanoids and other types of vehicles...I happen to have beautiful photos of some, and as I told you off-the-air, we're going to be releasing them in our upcoming magazine if someone doesn't stick a dagger through my heart...

GEORGE KNAPP You're talking about the Billy Meier case, if you want to touch on that, we also did some investigation on that...

CHUCK HARDER Ok, go ahead.

GEORGE KNAPP Billy Meier, I've always been intrigued by that, and wanted to check them out. Its been pretty much written-off by the UFO community but when we put questions to them about the case they can't explain exactly why so we traveled to Phoenix and talked to Lee Elders one of the lead investigators on the Billy Meier case and started going over the evidence. The photos had been analyzed by independent experts, the film footage and video had been analyzed, the metal sample had been confirmed as something we don't have -- technology of cold fusion was used to produce this metal, the landing sites, the strange circular patterns in the grass that are now only gaining attention in Britain and other countries, all of this stuff had never been pretty much discounted by the UFO community because Elders and Wendelle Stevens had gone outside of the UFO community to get confirmation. The UFO people were kept out of it, the Billy Meier case I think exemplifies the biggest weakness in UFOLOGY and that's the jealousy that permeates the field...everybody wants to be the only one with the real story of UFOs, so they kind of written this guy off only because he didn't cooperate with them.

CHUCK HARDER We have been able to get some photos from a source who has some negatives that were just recently located...some from ten feet away, I used to be in the motion picture business. If they are models they cost thousands of dollars and I doubt if a simple Swiss farmer could have done it...

GEORGE KNAPP I'd agree with ya, the reason we got interested in Billy Meier, it goes back to Lazar, was because Bob Lazar says, the saucer that he saw fly, he dubbed it the sport model, was the same saucer in the Meier photos, exactly the same.

CHUCK HARDER The new ones or the old ones?

GEORGE KNAPP The new one.

CHUCK HARDER Ok, that's the one we've got.

GEORGE KNAPP Going back to the things he saw (Lazar) at S-4, he saw the nine saucers, he said all nine of them were different, like we got the variety pack, but the one he saw fly was like the one in the Meier photo. (There are Three types photographed by Billy Meier.)

That's why we decided to check out the Meier part of the (UFO) story.

>>>>At this point Chuck Harder tells George Knapp that there is a break coming up and after the break would he please tell Mr. and Mrs. America what they should do to get the truth.<<<<

CHUCK HARDER I hope that Mr. and Mrs. America make note of the name George Knapp and Bob Lazar so that if anything ever happens to them, you know why.

GEORGE KNAPP Someone should tell us what's going on...TV and movies have conditioned us...we won't panic...Jimmy Carter when he ran for President promised that if he was elected that he vowed to open all the UFO files and he didn't -- we wrote to him asking why and he didn't respond. We want the government to come clean. If that takes a Congressional Investigation...that's something that should be looked at. If it is launched we have to make sure that there are no CIA, contractors and the like involved otherwise people aren't going to believe it. We've seen enough of this whitewash stuff over the years. If there's nothing to the story, then open up the files and prove it to us!

CHUCK HARDER OK, have the government let the press into these areas and don't first clean them out...

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