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Aucbvax.5881 fa.info-vax utcsrgv!utzoo!decvax!ucbvax!info-vax Wed Jan 20 23:32:12 1982 Shrager on Pandora's Box >From decvax!duke!bcw@Berkeley Wed Jan 20 23:27:37 1982 I am afriad that I can't follow your argument at all. I'd like more information about your contentions:

[1] Pipes

Why are pipes so bad? There's nothing which forces the use of a pipe when the implementation is inefficient; in fact, if a program is going to use lots of computer time (either because it runs a long time or because it is going to be run very often), then the pipe mechanism should be foregone. But it is annoying to have to write a lot of "one off" programs to do manipulations which will probably never have to be done again. True, it isn't as general as Lisp (more on that later). But what system does better? And how? Specifics, please!

[2] Streams

Again, why are byte streams so bad? In principle, their use in most text processing is no more inefficient than records, although I can believe that the Unix implementation can be improved (what can't be?). As far as records for other purposes go, there are indeed a number of useful purposes for records in non-text-processing applications. How this affects the use or non-use of records in text-processing applications escapes me. I don't follow your argument about the ISAM database botch at all -- why would a database want to convert its data from an ISAM format into a text stream just to filter it through the sort program? Why is this a consequence of Unix (i. e., what feature of Unix FORCES the writing of such a database)? Or is this simply an example of what you find as incompetent coding style which you feel exists on Unix? Again, specifics, please! I can't read your mind over the network!

[3] VMS

Again, please tell me why you feel VMS 'rots for a lot of other worse reasons' (your words). I have dealt with dozens of operating systems and although Unix and VMS both have good and bad points about them, in my experience neither deserves the appellation 'the two loser systems of the decade' (again, your words). Again, specifics! What operating systems do you find superior? Tenex? Multics? And what characteristic of your favorite system do you find lacking in VMS or Unix?

[4] On Dogmatism

(Judging from your missive, a section which could be applied to you as well)

Why has Unix set operating system development back 10 years? There seem to be a number of investigations into the subject which don't take this system as a given -- why does it affect them? And as for Lisp, APL, Mesa, and Smalltalk: I was under the impression that these were languages, usually supplied with a programming environment a la most Basic implementations; what qualifies them to be compared to operating systems? Why can't you have an adequate Lisp environment (for example) running under Unix or VMS? I am perfectly ready to believe that there are fundamental reasons why this isn't possible, but your article is so long on rhetoric and so short on facts that I am skeptical that your opinion is anything more than emotionalism. If I want that I can get plenty of it from the soap operas -- I don't need the network!

Bruce C. Wright @ Duke University

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