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MODERATOR:

From wake chapel and I'm Jim layer of the news hour on PBS. Welcome to this second elect 2000 debate between the Republican candidate for president Governor George W. Bush of Texas and the vice ice President Al Gore. The format and the rules are those negotiated by representatives of the two campaigns. Only the subjects tonight and the questions are mine. The format tonight is that of a conversation. The only prevailing rule is that no single response can ever, ever exceed two minutes. The prevailing rule for the audience here in the hall is, as always, absolute quiet, please, good evening, Governor Bush and Vice President Gore. The end of our 90 minutes last week in Boston, the total time each of you took was virtually the same. Let's see if we can do the same tonight or come close. Governor Bush the first question goes to you. One of you is about to be elected the leader of the single most powerful nation in the world economically, financially, militarily, diplomaticly, you name it. Have you formed any guiding principles for exercising this enormous power?

BUSH:

I have. The first question is what is in the best interest of the United States. What's in the best interests of our people. When it comes to foreign policy, that will be my guiding question. Is it in our nation's interests, peace in the Middle East is in our nation's interests, having a hemisphere that is free for trade and peaceful is in our nation's interest. Strong relations in Europe in is our nation's ipt. I thought a lot about what it means to be the nation's president. I also know it's not one person but an administration is dedicated citizens who are called by the president to serve the country, to serve a cause greater than self. So I've thought about an add administration of people who represent all America, but people who understand my compassionate and conservative philosophy. I haven't started naming names except for one person and that's Mr. Richard Cheney who I thought did a good job the other night. A vice presidential nominee. I think people see why I picked him. He's a man of solid judgment and a person that stands by my side. One of the things I've done in Texas is I've been able to put together a good team of people. I've been able to set clear goals. The goals out to be an educational system that leaves no child behind. A Social Security system that's safe and secure. A strong military and then bring people together to achieve those goals. It's what a chief executive officer does. I've thought long and hard about the honor of being the President of the United States.

MODERATOR:

Vt Gore.

GORE:

I've thought a lot about that particular question. I see our greatest national strength coming from what we stand for in the world. I see it as a question of values. It is a great tribute to our founders that 224 years later this nation is now looked to by the peoples on every other continent and the peoples from every part of this earth as a kind of model for what their future could be. And I don't think that's just the kind of exaggeration that we take pride in. As Americans it's really true. Even the ones that sometimes shake their fists at us. As soon as they allow a change to have the people to speak freely they're wanting to develop some kind of blueprint that will help them be like us more, freedom, free markets, political freedom. So I think first and foremost our power ought to be wielded in ways that form a more perfect union. The power of example is America's greatest power in the world. And that means, for example, standing up for human rights. It means addressing the problems of injustice and inequity along the lines of race and ethnicity here at home. Because in all these other places around the world where they are having these terrible problems, when they feel hope, it is often because they see in us a reflection of their potential. So we've got to enforce our civil rights laws. We've got to deal with things like racial profiling. And we have to keep our military strong. We have the strongest military and I'll do whatever is necessary if I'm president to make sure that it stays that way. But our real power comes, I think, from our values.

MODERATOR:

Should the people of the world look at the United States, governor, and say, should they fear us, should they welcome our involvement, should they see us as a friend, everybody in the world? How would you project us around the world as president.

BUSH:

I think they all look at us as a country that understands freedom. Doesn't matter who you are or where you're raised or where you're from, you can succeed. I don't think they ought to look at us with envy. It depends on how we conduct ourselves in foreign policy. If we're an arrogant nation they'll resent us if we're a humble nation but strong they'll welcome us. Our nation stands alone in the world right now in terms of power. That's why we've got to be humble and yet project strength in a way that promotes freedom. I don't think they ought to look at us in any way other than what we are. We're a freedom loving nation. If we're an arrogant nation they'll view us that way. If we're a humble nation they'll respect us, a humble nation.

GORE:

I agree with that. I agree with that. I think that one of the problems that we have faced in the world is that we are so much more powerful than any single nation has been in relationship to the rest of the world than at any time in history, that I know about, anyway, that there is some resentment of U.S . power. So I think that the idea of humility is an important one. I think that we also have to have a sense of mission in the world. We have to protect our capacity to push forward what America is all about. That means not only military strength and our values, it also means keeping our economy strong. You know, in the last two decades ago, it was routine for leaders of foreign countries to come over here and say, you guys have got to do something about these horrendous deficits, it's causing tremendous problems for the rest of the world. We were lectured to all the time. The fact that we have the strongest economy in history today is not good enough, we need to do more. But the fact that it is so strong enables us to project the power for good that America can represent.

MODERATO R:

Does that give us -- does our wealth, our good economy, our power, bring with it special obligations to the rest of the world?

BUSH:

Yes, it does. Take for example third world debt. I think we ought to be for giving third world debt under certain conditions. I think, for example, if we're convinced that a third world country that has got a lot of debt would reform itself, that the money wouldn't go into the hands of a few but would go to help people, then I think it makes sense for us to use our wealth in that way. Or to trade debt for valuable rain forest lands. Make sense. We do have an obligation but we can't be all things to all people. We can help build coalitions but we can't put your troops all around the world. We can lend money but we have to do it wisely. We sh ouldn't be lending money to corrupt officials. We have to be guaed in our againingenerosity.

MODERATOR:

Lets go through some of the specific now. New question, the governor mentioned the Middle East. We're talking about diplomatic power we have. What do you think the United States should do right now to resolve the conflict over there?

GORE:

The first priority has to be on ending the violence. Dampening down the tensions that have risen there. We need to call upon Syria to release the three Israeli soldiers who have been captured. We need to insist that Arafat send out instructions to halt some of the prove October acts of violence that have been going on. I think that we also have to keep an eye toward Saddam Hussein and he's making threats. He has to understand he's not onl y dealing with Israel. He's dealing with us if he is making the kind of threats that he's talking about there. The use of diplomacy in this situation has already, well it goes hour by hour and day by day it's a tense situation there. In the last 24 hours there has been some subsideing of the violence there. It's too much to hope that this is going to continue but I do hope that it will continue. Our country has been very active with regular conversations with the leaders there, and we just have to take it day-to-day right now. But one thing I would say where diplomacy is concerned, Israel should -- should feel absolutely secure about one thing. Our bonds with Israel are larger than agreements or disagreements on some detail of diplomatic initiative. They are historic, strong and they are endu ring and our ability to serve as an honest broker is something that we need to shepherd.

MODERATOR:

Governor?

BUSH:

I think during the campaign, particularly now during this difficult period we ought to be speaking with one voice and I appreciate the administration has worked hard to calm the tensions like the vice president, I call on chairman Arafat to have his people pull back. To make the peace. I think credibility will be very important in the future in the Middle East. I want everybody to know should I be the president, Israel is going to be our friend. I'm going to stand by Israel. Secondly, that I think it's important to reach out to moderate Arab nations, like Jordan and Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. You need a strong bond of friendship when you need each other.

That will be particular important in dealing not only with situations such as now occurring in Israel but with Saddam Hussein, the coalition against sad am has fallen apart. The sanctions are being violated. We don't know whether he's developing weapons of mass destruction. He better not be or there will be a consequence should I be the president. It's important to have credibility. Credibility is formed by being strong with your friends and resolute in your determination. It's important for this nation to develop an anti-ballistic missile system that we can share with our allies in the Middle East if need be to keep the peace to be able to say at the Saddam Husseins of the world or the irrelevant ainance, don't you dare threaten our friends. Strong ties in the Middle East, credible ties b ecause of the energy crisis we're now in. After all, a lot of the energy is produced from the Middle East. I appreciate what the administration is doing. I hope -- should I be fortunate enough to be president how my administration will react to the Middle East.

MODERATOR:

You believe, Vice President Gore we should take sides and resolve this right now? A lot of people are pushing the United States should declare itself and not be so neutral.

GORE:

We stand with Israel but we have maintained the ability to serve as an honest broker. One of the reasons that's important is that Israel cannot have direct dialogue with some of the people on the other side of conflict especially during times of tension unless that dialogue comes through us. And if we throw away that ability to serve as an honest broker then we have -- we will have thrown away a strategic asset that's not only important to us but to Israel.

BUSH:

I think that when it comes to timetables it can't be United States timetable as to how discussions take place it has to be a timetable that all parties can agree to. Secondly, any lasting peace is going to have to be a peace that's good for both sides. And therefore, the term honest broker makes sense. Whether this current administration has worked hard to keep the parties at the table. I will try to do the same thing. But it won't be on my timetable, it will be on the timetable that people are comfortable with in the Middle East MODERATOR:

People watching her tonight very interested in Middle East policy. They want to base their vote on differences between the two of you as president how you would handle Middle East policy. Is there any difference?

GORE:

I haven't heard a big difference right in the last few exchanges.

BUSH:

It's hard to tell. I think that, you know, I would hope to be able to convince people I could handle the Iraqi situation better. I mean, we don't, MODERATOR:

Saddam Hussein you mean. You would like to get him out of there?

BUSH:

We don't know there's no inspectors in Iraq. The coalition that was in place isn't as strong as it used to be. He is a danger. We don't want him fishing in troubled waters in the Middle East. It will be hard to -- it will be important to rebuild that coalition to keep the pressure on him.

MODERATOR:

Do you feel that as a failure of the Clinton administration?

BUSH:

I do.

GORE:

When I got to be a part of the current administration, it was right after I was one of the few members of my political party to support former President Bush in the Persian Gulf War resolution. At the end of that war, for whatever reason, it was not finished in a way that removed Saddam Hussein from power. I know there are all kinds of circumstances and explanations but the fact is that that's the situation that was left when I got there. And we have maintained the sanctions. Now, I want to go further. I want to give robust support to the groups trying to overthrow Saddam Hussein. I know there are allegations that they're too weak to do it. That's what they said about the forces that were opposing Milosevic in Serbia. The policy of enforcing sanctions in Serb ia has just resulted in a spectacular victory for democracy just within the past week. It seems to me that, having taken so long to see the sanctions work there, building upon the policy of containment that was successful over a much longer period of time against the former Soviet Union and the Communist block it seems a little early to declare that we should give up on the sanctions. I know the governor is not necessarily saying that. But, you know, all of these flights that have come in, all of them have been in accordance with the sanctions regime I'm told except for three where they notified. And they're trying to break out of the box, there's no question about it. I don't think they should be allowed to.

MODERATOR:

Did he state your position correctly, you're not calling for eliminating the sanctions are you?

BUSH:

No, of course not, I want them to be tougher.

MODERATOR:

Let's go on to Milosevic and Yugoslavia and it falls under the area of our military power. Governor new question. Should the fall of Milosevic be seen as a triumph for U.S. military intervention?

BUSH:

I think it's a triumph. I thought the president made the right decision in joining NATO in bombing Serbia. I supported him when they did so. I called upon the Congress not to hamstring the administration. In terms of forcing troop withdrawals on a timetable that wasn't in necessarily our best interest or fit our nation's strategy. I think it's good public policy. I think it worked and I'm pleased I made the decision I made. I'm pleased the president made the decision he m ade, because freedom took hold in that part of the world and there is a lot of work left to be done, however.

MODERATOR:

Do you think it would not have happened -- do you think that Milosevic would not have fallen if the you neated states and NATO had intervened? Is it a legitimate use of our military?

BUSH:

Absolutely. I don't think he would have fallen had we not used force. I know there's some in my party that disagreed with that. I supported the president. I don't think he made the right decision to land troops off the table right before we committed ourselves offensively. It worked, the administration deserves credit for making it work. It's for for NATO to be strong and confident to help keep the peace in Europe. One of the reasons I felt so strongly the United Sta tes needed to participate was because of our relations with NATO and NATO is going to be an important part of keeping the peace in the future. Now, there's more work to do. Remains to be seen whether or not there will be a political settlement to Kosovo and certainly I hope there is one. I've also on record of saying at some point in time I hope our European friends become the peacekeepers in Bosnia and the Balkans. I hope they put the troops on the ground so that we can withdraw our troops and focus our military on fighting and winning war.

MODERATOR:

Mr. Vice President?

GORE:

I've been kind of a hard liner on this issue for more than eight years. When I walls in the Senate before I became vice president I was pushing for stronger action against Milosevic. He caused the death of so many people. He was the last Communist party boss there and then he became a dictator that by some other label he was still essentially a Communist dictator. And unfortunately now he is trying to reassert himself in Serbian politics already. Just today the members of his political party said that they were going to ignore the orders of the new president of Serbia, and that they questioned his legitimacy. He is still going to try to be actively involved. He's an indicted war criminal. He should be held accountable. Now I did want to pick up on one of the statements earlier and maybe I have heard -- maybe I've heard the previous statements wrong, governor. In some of the discussions we've had about when it's appropriate for the U.S. to use force around the world, at times the standa rds that you've laid down have given me the impression that if it's something like a genocide taking place or what they called ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, that that alone would not be -- that that wouldn't be the kind of situation that would cause you to think that the U.S. ought to get involved with troops. Now, there have to be other factors involved for me to want to be involved but by itself that to me can bring into play a fundamental American stage I can interest because I think it's based on our values? Have I got that wrong?

MODERATOR:

Governor?

BUSH:

Trying to figure out who the questioner was. If I think it's in our nation's strategic interest I'll commit troops. I thought it was in our strategic interests to keep Milosevic in check because of our relations in NATO. I think it's important for NATO to be strong. I felt like an unchecked Milosevic would harm NATO. And so it depends on the situation, Mr. Vice President.

MODERATOR:

Let's change the subject for a moment. New question related to this. I figured this out. In the last 20 years there have been eight major actions involving the U.S. ground, naval and let me name them, p Persian Gulf, Bosnia Haiti, Kosovo. If you had been president would any of those interventions not have happened.

GORE:

Ruin through the list again.

MODERATOR:

Lebanon.

GORE:

I thought that was a mistake.

MODERATOR:

Grenada?

GORE:

I supported that one.

MODERATOR:

Persian Gulf?

GORE:

Yes.

MODERATOR:

Somalia?

GORE:

No, I think that was ill-considered. I did support it at the time. It was in the previous administration, in the Bush Quayle administration. I think in retrospect the lessons there are ones that we should take very, very seriously.

MODERATOR:

Bosnia.

GORE:

Yes.

MODERATOR:

Haiti?

GORE:

Yes.

MODERATOR:

Kosovo, we talked about that?

GORE:

Yes.

BUSH:

I'll make a couple of comments. Somalia, start off as a humanitarian mission and changed into a nation building mission and that is where the mission went wrong. The mission was changed. I don't think our troops out to be used for what is called nation building. Our troops ought to be used to fight and win war. I think our troops ought to be used to help overthrow a dictator that's -- when it's in our best interests. But in this case it was a nation-building exercise, the same with Haiti. I wouldn't have supported either.

MODERATOR:

What about Lebanon?

BUSH:

Yes.

MODERATOR:

Granada BUSH:

Yes. Some of them I have a conflict of interest on.

MODERATOR:

The Persian Gulf, Bosnia, you've already talked about Kosovo but the reverse side of the question, governor, that Vice President Gore mentioned, 600,000 people died in Rwanda in 1994. No U.S. intervention or no intervention from the outside world. Was that a mistake not to intervene?

BUSH:

I think the administration did the right thing in that case. It was a horrible situation. No one liked to see it on the TV screens but it's a case that we need to make sure we have kind of an early warning system in place in places where there could be ethnic cleansing and genocide that way we saw it there in Rwanda. We need to use our influence to have countries in Africa come together and help deal with the situation. The administration -- the add administration made the right decision on training Nigerian troops for situations like this in Rwanda. I thought they made the right decision not to send the U.S.troops into Rwanda.

GORE:

I would like to come back to the question of nation building. We did actually send troops into Rwanda to help with the humanitarian relief measures. My wife, Tipper, who is here actually went on a military plane with a general on one of those flights. But I think in retrospect we were too late getting in there. We could have saved more lives if we had acted earlier. But I do not think that it was an example of a conflict where we should have put our troops in to tr y to separate the parties. For this reason, Jim. One of the criteria that I think is important in deciding when and if we should ever get involved around the world is whether or not -- if our national security interest is involved. If we can really make the difference with military force. If we've tried everything else. If we have allies. In the Balkans we had allies, NATO, ready, willing and able to go and carry a big part of the burden. In Africa we did not. Now, our country has tried to create an Africa crisis response team there and we've met some resistance. We have had some luck with Nigeria. But in now that Nigeria has become a democracy maybe we can build on that. But because we had no allies and because it was very unclear that we could actually accomplish what we would want to accomp lish by putting military forces there I think it was the right thing not to jump in. As heartbreaking as it was, but I think we should have come in much quicker with the humanitarian mission.

MODERATOR:

What would you say, governor if somebody would say wait a minute, why not Africa? Why the Middle East? Why the Balkans but not Africa when 600,000 people's lives are at risk?

BUSH:

I understand and Africa is important and we have to do a lot of work in Africa to promote democracy and trade and there's some, vice president mentioned Nigeria is a fledgling democracy we have to work with Nigeria. It's an important continent but there has to be priorities and Middle East is a priority for a lot of reasons. As is Europe and the far east, our own hemisphere. Those are my top four priorities should I be president. Not to say that we're not engaged or work hard to get other nations to come together to prevent at Ross tie. I thought the best example of a way to handle a situation is when we provided logistical support to the us a trailance, support only week provide. I thought that was a good model. We can't be all things to all people in the world, Jim. And I think that's where maybe the vice president and I begin to have some differences. I'm worried about overcommitting our military around the world. I want to be Judd I shallous in its use. I wouldn't have sent troops to Haiti. I didn't think it was a mission worthwhile. It was a nation-building mission and it wasn't very successful. It cost us a couple billion dollar and I'm not sure Haiti is better off than before.

MODERATOR:

Do you agree with the governor's views on nation building as he described and defined it.

GORE:

I don't think we agree on that. I would certainly also be Judd I shall in evaluating troops over seas. I think we have to be receipt sent about that. The world is changing so rapidly the way I see it the world is getting much closer together, like it or not we are now the United States is now the natural leader of the world. All these other countries are looking to us. Now, just because we cannot be involved everywhere and shouldn't be doesn't mean that we should shy away from going in anywhere. Now, both of us are kind of, I guess, stating the other's position in a maximum extreme way but I think there is a difference here. This idea of nation building is the kind of a pejorat ive phrase but think about the great conflict of the past century, World War II. During the years between World War I and World War II a great lesson was learned by our military leaders and the people of the United States. The lesson was that in the aftermath of World War I we kind of turned our backs and left them to their own devices and they brewed up a lot of trouble that quickly became World War II. And acting upon that lesson in the aftermath of our great victory in World War II, we laid down the marshall plan, President Truman did. We got intimately involved in building NATO and other structures there. We still have lots of troops in Europe. And what did we do in the late 40's and 50's and 60's, we were nation building. And it was economic. But it was also military. And the co nfidence that those countries recovering from the wounds of war had by having troops there. We had a civil administrators come in to set up their ways of building their towns back.

MODERATOR:

You said in the Boston debate, governor, on this issue of nation building that the United States military is overextended now. Where is it overextended? Where are there U.S. military that you would bring home if you become president.

BUSH:

Let me make one comment. One of the lessons in between world war 1 and World War II we let our military atrophy. We have to rebuild our military. One of the problems we have in the military is all over the world. I recognize we can't get our troops out of the Balkans now nor do I advocate an immediate withdrawal. No one is suggesting that. But I think i t ought to be one of our priorities to work with our European friends to convince them to put troops on the ground. There is an example. Haiti is another example. Now there are some places where I supported the administration in Columbia. I think it's important for us to be training column beeance in that part of the world. Hemisphere is in our interest to have a peaceful Columbia. The use of the military MODERATOR:

Some people are suggesting if you don't want to use the military to maintain the peace and do the civil thing is it time to consider a civil force of some kind that comes in after the military that builds nations or all of that? Is that on your -- BUSH:

I think what we need to do is convince people who live in the lands they live in to build the nations. Maybe I'm missing something here. We have kind of a nation building core from America? Absolutely not. Our military is meant to fight and win war. That's what it's meant to do. When it gets overextended morale drops. I strongly believe we need to have a military presence in the peninsula but to keep regional stability. We need to keep a presence in NATO but I'll be careful how to use the military. It needs to be in our vital interest and the extra strategy obvious.

GORE:

I don't disagree with that. I don't disagree we need to get our troops home from the Balkans as soon as we can as soon as the mission is complete. That's what we did in Haiti. There are no more than a handful of American military personnel in Haiti now. And Haitians have their problems but we gave them a chance to restore democ racy. That's really about all we can do. If you have a situation like that right in our backyard with chaos about to break out and ships forming to come across the water and all kinds of violence there, right in one of our neighboring countries there then I think that we did the right thing there. And as for this idea of nation building, the phrase sounds grand. We can't allow ourselves to get overextended. I certainly agree with that. That's why I've supported building up our capacity. I've devoted in the budget I've proposed as I said last week more than twice as much as the governor has proposed. I think it's in better shape now than he generally does. We've had some disagreements about that. He said that two divisions would have to report not ready for duty and that's not what the joint chiefs say. But there's no doubt that we have to continue building up readiness and military strength. And we have to also be very cautious in the way we use our military.

MODERATOR:

In the non-military area of influencing events around the world. The world bank president said recently, governor, that U.S. contributions to overseas development assistance is lower now almost than it has ever been. Is that a problem for you? What is your idea about what the United States obligations are. Financial assistance and that sort of thing to other countries to poor countries.

BUSH:

I mentioned third world debt that's a place where we can use our generosity to influence in a positive way influence nations. I believe we ought to have foreign aid but not just to have it for the sak e of foreign aid. I think foreign aid needs to be used to encourage markets and reform. I think a lot of times we just send aid and we feel better about it and it ends up being spent the wrong way and there's some pretty big examples lately. One being Russian. A lot of money that ended up in the pockets of powerful people and didn't help the nation. I think the IMF has got a role in the world but I don't want to see it as a way out there to say if you make a bad loan we'll bail you out. It needs to be available for emergency situations. I think the president did the right thing with Mexico and was strongly supportive of the add administration in Mexico. I don't think IMF ought to be a stop loss for people who ought to be able to evaluate risks themselves. I'll look at every place wh ere we're investing money. I want to make sure the return is good MODERATOR:

Do you think we're meeting our obligations properly?

GORE:

I would make some changes. There need to be reforms in the IMF. I've generally supported it but I've seen them make some calls that I thought were highly questionable and I think that there's a general agreement in many parts of the world now that there ought to be changes in the IMF. The world bank I think is generally doing a better job but I think one of the big issues here that doesn't get nearly enough attention is the issue of corruption. The governor mentioned it earlier. I've worked on this issue. It's an enormous problem and corruption in official agencies like militaries and police departments around the world, customs officials.

That's one of the worst forms of it and we have got to again lead by example and help these other countries that are trying to straighten out their situations, find the tools in order to do it. I just think, Jim, that this is an absolutely unique period in world history. The world has come together, as I said, they're looking to us. And we have a fundamental choice to make. Are we going to step up to the plate as a nation the way we did after World War II, the way that generation of heroes said okay, the United States is going to be the leader. And the world benefitted tremendously from the courage that they showed in those post-war years. I think that in the aftermath of the Cold War, it's time for us to do something very similar to step up to the plate, to provide the leadership on the en ronment, leadership to make sure the world economy keeps moving in the right direction. Again that means not running big deficits here and not squandering our surplus. It means having intelligent decisions that keep our prosperity going and shepherds that economic strength so we can provide that leadership role.

BUSH:

Let me comment on that. I'm not so sure the role of the United States is to go around the world and say this is the way it's got to be. We can help. And maybe it's just our difference in government the way we view government. I want to empower the people. I want to help people help themselves not have government tell people what to do. I just don't think it's the role of the United States to walk into a country and say we do it this way so should you. I think we can help. I know we have to encourage democracy in the marketplaces. But take Russia, for example. We went into Russia and said here is some IMF money and it ended up in people's pockets and we played like there was reform. The only people that are going oh to reform Russia are Russians. They'll have to make the decisions themselves. Mr. Putin is going to have to make the decision he wants to adhere to law so if inat the tease invest capital there's a reason to get return. A way to get money out of the economy. Russia has to make the decision. We can work with them on security matters but it's their call to make. I think one way for us to end up being viewed as the ugly American is for us to go around the world saying we do it this way, so should you. Now, we trust freedom, we know fre edom is a powerful, powerful force, much bigger than the United States of America as we saw recently in the Balkans but maybe I misunderstand where you're coming from Mr. Vice President but I think the United States must be humble and must be proud and confident of our values but humble in how we treat nations that are figuring out how to chart their own course.

MODERATOR:

Lets move on. Let's move on.

GORE:

Far be it from me to suggest otherwise. [LAUGHTER]

MODERATOR:

First, a couple of follow-ups from the vice presidential debate last week. Vice President Gore would you support or sign a federal law banning racial profiling by police or other authorities at all levels of government?

GORE:

Yes, I would. The only thing an executive order can do is ban it in federal law enforcement agencies but I would also support a law in the Congress that would have the effect of doing the same thing. I just -- I think that racial profiling is a serious problem. I remember when the stories first came out about the stops in new Jersey by the highway patrol there. It's been going on a long time. In some ways this is just a new label for something that has been going on for years. But I have to confess that it was the first time that I really focused on it in a new way. And I was surprised at the extent of it. And I think we've now got so many examples around the country that we really have to find ways to end this. Imagine what it -- what it is like for someone to be singled out unfairly, unjustly and feel the unfair force of law simply because of a race of ethnicity. That runs counter to what the United States of America is all about at our core. And it's not an easy problem to solve. But if I am entrusted with the presidency it will be the first Civil Rights Act of the 21st century.

BUSH:

I can't imagine what it would be like to be singled out because of race and stopped and harassed. That's just flat wrong and that's not what America is all about. So we ought to do everything we can to end racial profiling. One of my concerns, though, is I don't want to federal eyes the local police forces. I want to obviously in the serious cases we have to enforce civil rights law but we need to make sure that internal affairs decisions at the local level do their job and be given a chance to do their job. I believe in local control of governments and obviously if th ey don't there needs to be a consequence at the federal level. It's very important that we not overstep our bounds and -- most police offices are good dedicated honorable citizens who are doing their job putting their lives at risk who aren't bigoted or prejudice. I don't think they ought to be held guilty. But I do think we need to find out where racial profiling occurs and do something about it and say to the local folks get it done and if you can't there will be a federal consequence.

MODERATOR:

That could be a federal law?

BUSH:

Yeah.

MODERATOR:

MODERATOR:

You would agree.

GORE:

I also believe most police officers are doing a good job and hate this practice also. I talked to an African-American police officer in Springfield, Massachusetts not long ago who raised this question and said that in his opinion one of the biggest solutions is in the training. Not only the training in police procedures but human relations. And I think that racial profiling is part of a larger issue of how we deal with race in America. And as for singling people out because of race, you know James b*ird was singled out because of his race in Texas and other Americans have been singled out because of their race or ethnicity. That's why I think we can embody our values by passing a hate crimes law. I think these crimes are different. I think they're ditch rent because they're based on prejudice and hatred which gives rise to crimes that have not a single victim but they're intended to dehumanize a whole group of people.

BUSH:

We have a law in Texas. The three me n who murdered James Byrd, guess what's going to happen to them? They'll be put to death. A jury found them guilty. It will be hard to punish them any worse after they get put to death. And it's the right cause. It's the right decision. Secondly, there is other forms of racial profiling that goes on in America. Arab Americans are racially proper field in what is called secret evidence. People are stopped and we have to do something about that. My friend Senator Spencer Abraham of Michigan is pushing a law to make sure Arab Americans are treated with respect. Racial profiling isn't just an issue of local police forces it's an issue throughout our society. As we become a diverse society we'll have to deal with it more and more. I believe, though, I believe as sure as I'm sitting here that mos t Americans really care. They're tolerant people. They're good, tolerant people. It's the very few that create most of the crises and we have to find them and deal with them.

MODERATOR:

If you become president, governor, are there other areas, racial problem areas that you would deal with as president involving discrimination? Like you said Arab Americans, Hispanics, Asian-Americans and Blacks in this country.

BUSH:

The biggest discrimination comes in public education. She's one of the greatest lines of all lines she said reading is the new civil right. She's right. And to make sure our society is as hopeful as it possibly can be, every single child in America must be educated. I mean every child. It starts with making sure every child learns to read. K-2 diagnostic testin g so we know whether or not there's a deficiency. Curriculum that works and phonics needs to be an integral part of our reading program. Teacher retraining. There needs to be a wholesale effort against racial profiling, which is illiterate children. We can do better in our public schools. We can close an achievement gap and it starts with making sure we have strong accountability, Jim. One of the cornerstones of good reform is to measure, because when you measure you can ask the question, do they know? Is anybody being proper field? Is any body being discriminated against? It becomes a corrective tool. I believe the federal government must say if you receive any money, any money from the federal government for disadvantaged children for example you must show us whether or not the childr en are learning. If they are, fine. If they aren't there has to be a consequence. To make sure we end up getting rid of basic structural prejudice is education. There is nothing more prejudice than not educating a child.

MODERATOR:

Vice President Gore what would be on your racial discrimination list.

GORE:

Toughen forcement of the civil rights law. We still need affirmative action. Pass a hate crimes law. I guess I had misunderstood the governor's previous position. The bird family may have a misunderstanding in Texas of it also. I would like to shift to -- MODERATOR:

What is the misunderstanding?

GORE:

I thought there was a controversy legislative sections where the hate crimes law in Texas failed and that the BYRD family among others asked you to support it, govern or and it died in committee for lack of support. Am I wrong about that?

BUSH:

You don't realize we have a hate statute?

GORE:

I'm talking about the one that was proposed to deal.

BUSH:

What the vice president doesn't understand is we have a hate crimes bill in Texas and the people that murdered Mr. bird got the ultimate punishment. They were prosecuted under the murder laws in Texas?

BUSH:

In this case when you murder somebody it's hate, Jim. The crime is hate and they got the ultimate punishment. I'm not exactly sure how you enhance the penalty any more than the death penalty. We happen to have a statute on the books, a hate crime statutes in Texas.

GORE:

I don't want to jump in. May I reply? I may have been misled by all the news reports about this matte r because the law that was proposed in Texas that had the support of the BYRD family and a whole lot of people in Texas did, in fact, die in committee. There may be some other statute that was already on the books, but certainly the advocates of the hate crimes law felt that a tough new law was needed. And it's important, Jim, not only -- not just because of Texas, but because this mirrors the national controversy. There is pending now in the Congress a national hate crimes law because of James Byrd, because of Matthew Shepard who was crucified on a split rail fence by BIGOTS. And that bill has died also.

MODERATOR:

Would you support a national hate crimes law?

BUSH:

Let me say to you, Mr. Vice President we're happy with our laws on our books. There was another bill that did die in co mmittee but I want to repeat, if you have a state that's fully supports the law like we do in Texas, we're going to go after all crime. And we're going to make sure people get punished for the crime. In this case we can't enhance the penalty any more than putting those three thugs to deaths. That's what is going to happen in the State of Texas.

MODERATOR:

New subject, new question, another vice presidental debate follow up. Both Senator Lieberman and Secretary Cheney said they were reviewing their views on same sex relationships. What's your position on that?

BUSH:

I'm not for gay marriage. I think marriage is a sacred institution between a man and a woman and I appreciate the way the administration signed the defense of marriage act. I presume the vice president supported it when the president signed that bill and supports it now. I think marriage is a sacred institution. I'll be respectful for people who may disagree with me. I've had a record in the State of Texas. I accept other people's points of view but I feel strongly that marriage should be between a man and a woman.

MODERATOR:

Vice President Gore.

GORE:

I agree with that and I did support that law. I think that we should find a way to allow some kind of civic union. I basically agree with Dick Cheney and Joe Lieberman and I think the three of us have one view and the governor has another view?

BUSH:

I'm not kind of view he's describing to me. I'm a person who respects other people. I respect -- one day he says he agrees with me and then he says he doesn't. I will be a tolerant person. I've bee n a tolerant person all my life. I happen to believe strongly that marriage is between a man and a woman.

MODERATOR:

Do you believe in general terms that gays and lesbians should have the same rights as other agreements.

BUSH:

I don't think they ought to have special rights but they need to have the same right.

GORE:

There's a bill spending call the employment non-discriminations act. It says gays and lesbians can't be fired from their jobs and it would be a federal law preventing that. It's been blocked by the opponents in the majority in the Congress. I wonder if the governor who lend his support to that law.

BUSH:

The question?

MODERATOR:

It's a logical response.

BUSH:

I have no idea. You can throw out -- I don't know the particulars of this law. I'm the kind of person I don't hire or somebody based upon their sexual orientation. I would like to take the issue further. I don't think it's any of my concerns how you conduct your sex life and I think it's a private matter. I think that's the way it ought to be. I'll be respectful for people. I'll tolerate people and I support equal rights but not special rights for people.

MODERATOR:

Special rights how does that affect gays and lesbians.

BUSH:

If they're given special protective status. That doesn't mean we shouldn't fully enforce laws and fully protect people and fully honor people which I will do as the President of the United States.

MODERATOR:

New subject. How do you see the connection of controlling gun sales in this country and the death by accidental or intentional use of guns.

GORE:

I hope we can come back to the subject of education. The governor made an extensive statement on it and I have a very different view than the one he expressed. But that having been said, I believe that -- first of all let me say that the governor and I agree on some things where this subject is concerned. I will not do anything to affect the rights of hunters or sportsman. I think that homeowners have to be respected and their right to have a gun if they wish to. The problem I see is that there are too many guns getting into the hands of children and criminals and people who, for whatever reason, some kind of history of stalking or domestic abuse really should not be able to get guns. I think these assault weapons are a problem. So I favor closing the gun show loophole. I n fact I cast the tie-breaking vote to close it but then the majority in the House of Representatives went the other way. That's still pending. If we could get agreement on that maybe they could pass that in the final days of this Congress. I think we ought to restore the three-day waiting period under the Brady law. I think we should toughen the enforcement of gun laws so that the ones that are already on the books can be enforced much more effectively. Some of the restrictions that have been placed by the Congress in the last couple of years. I think in the last few years. I think have been unfortunate. I think that we ought to make all schools gun free. Have a gun-free zone around every school in this country. I think that measures like these are important. Child safety trigger locks on a man datory basis and others.

MODERATOR:

Governor?

BUSH:

Starts with enforcing law. When you say loud and clear to somebody if you're going to carry a gun illegally. If you commit a crime with a gun there needs to be absolute certainty in the law. And that means that the local law enforcement officials need help at the federal level. Programs like project exile where the federal government intense files arresting people who illegally use guns. We haven't done a very good job of that at the federal level recently. I don't think we ought to be selling guns to people who shouldn't have them. That's why I support instant background checks at gun shows. One of the reasons we have an instant background check is so that we instantly know whether somebody should have a gun or not. In Texas I tried to do something innovative. There's a lot of talk about trigger locks being on guns sold in the future I support that. If you want a trigger lock to make your gun safe come and get one for free. We're distributing in our State of Texas for free. I think we ought to raise the age at which a juvenile can carry a hand gun from 18-21. He is for registration of guns. The only people that will show up to register or get a licensing, are law abiding citizens. The criminal is not going to show up and say hey, give me my I.D.card. The law abiding citizens will do that. I don't think that is going to be an effective tool to make the -- keep our society safe.

MODERATOR:

All right, so on guns, somebody wants to cast a vote based on your differences, where are the differences?

GORE:

I'm not for registration. I'm for licensing by states of new hand gun purchases. A photo license I.D.like a drivers license for new hand guns and you know the Los Angeles MODERATOR:

You would have to get the license, a photo I.D.before you could buy the gun?

GORE:

Yes.

MODERATOR:

Who would issue it?

GORE:

I think states should do that for new hand guns. Too many criminals are getting guns. There was a recent investigation of the number in Texas who got -- who were given concealed weapons permits in spite of the fact that they had records and Los Angeles times spent a lot of ink going into that. But I am not for doing anything that would affect hunters or sportsman, rifles, shotguns, existing hand guns. I do think that sensible gun safety measures are warranted n ow. Look, this is the year -- this is in the aftermath of Columbine. And all the places in our country where the nation has been shocked by weapons in the hands of the wrong people. The woman who bought the gun for the two boys who did that killing at Columbine said that if she had had to give her name and fill out a form there, she would not have bought those guns. That conceivably could have prevented that tragedy.

MODERATOR:

Back to the questions about the differences are gun control. What are they between you and the vice president.

BUSH:

I'm not for photo licensing. Let's say something about Columbine. He says ought to have gun free schools. I'm sure every state in the union has got them. There ought to be a consequence when you carry a gun into a school. But Columb ine spoke to a larger issue. It's really a matter of culture. A culture that somewhere along the line we've begun to disrespect life. Where a child can walk in and have their heart turned dark as a result of being on the Internet and walk in and decide to take somebody else's life. Gun laws are important no question about it but so is loving children and character education classes and faith-based programs being a part of after-school programs. Some desperate child needs to have somebody put their arms around them and say we love you. There's a society that of ours that has to do a better job of teaching children right from wrong and we can enforce law. But there seems to be a lot of preoccupation on -- in general on law. But there's a larger law, love your neighbor like you would like to be loved yourself. That's where our society must head if we're going to be a peaceful and prosperous society.

GORE:

I also believe in the golden rule and I agree with a lot of the other things that the governor has said. We do have a serious problem in our culture. Tipper and I have worked on the problem of violence in entertainment aimed at children. She's worked on it longer than I have. I feel very strongly about that. If I'm elected president I will do something about that. I think we have to start with better parenting, but I don't think that we can ignore the role played by guns. The fact is that there -- even though no state wants them, there are guns in some schools and the reason it's so difficult for schools to control that is because in recent years there has been a flood of cheap hand guns that are so widely available that kids are finding ways to get ahold of them. And I think that if you look at the situation as it exists here in the United States compared to any other country in the world it seems to me pretty obvious while we respect the rights of hunters and sportsman we need some common sense gun safety steps.

BUSH:

No question about that but there also needs to be strong enforcement of the law. Some kid who feels like -- doesn't matter where the gun comes from, it could be cheap or expensive. What matters is something in this person head says there is not going to be a consequence. We toughen up the juvenile justice laws. We added beds. We're tough. We believe in tough love. We say if you get caught carrying a gun you're automatically detained an d that's what needs to happen. We've got laws. If laws need to be strengthened like instant background checks, that's important.

MODERATOR:

New question. Both of you, governor, both of you have talked much about Medicare and health care for seniors. What about the more than 40 million younger Americans who do not have health insurance right now? What would you do about that?

BUSH:

Well I have a plan to do something about that is to make health care affordable and available this way. First there's some who should be buying health care who choose not to. There's some -- some of the healthy folks, healthy young kids that will never get sick therefore I don't need health care right now. For those what I think we need to do is develop an investment type vehicle that would be an incent ive for them to invest like medical savings accounts with rollover capacity. In other words, you say to a youngster, it will be in your financial interest to start saving for future illness but for the working folks that do want to have health care that can't afford it, a couple of things we need to do. One, we need more community health centers, put out money in my budget to expand community health centerers all around the country. Places where people can get primary care. Secondly, and they're good. They're very important parts of the safety net of health care. Secondly, that you get a $2,000 rebate from the government if you're a family of $30,000 or less that you can use to purchase health care in the private markets. It will be a huge down payment for a pretty darn good system. If y ou allow -- also allow -- convince states to -- allow states to allow the mother to match some of the children's health insurance money with it, the pool purchasing power and to make health care more affordable, allow business associations like the national federal of independent business or the Chamber of Commerce or the national restaurant association to right plans across jurisdiction lines so there is national pooling to drive the cost of insurance down. It empowers and trusses people. It is a practical way to encourage people to purchase health care insurance.

MODERATOR:

Vice President Gore?

GORE:

It's one of my top priorities to give every child within the United States affordable health care. Some form of universal health care in the country. I'm not for a government- run system. In fact I'm for shrinking the size of government. I want a smaller and smarter government. I have been in charge of this reinventing government stream lining project that has reduced the size of government but more than 300,000 people in the last several years and the budget plan that I've put out according to the Los Angeles times again the way these things are typically measured as a percentage of the GDP will bring government spending down to the lowest level in 50 years. I want to proceed carefully to cover more people. But I think we should start by greatly expanding the so-called child health insurance or chip program to give health insurance to every single child in this country. I think it's intolerable that we have so many millions of children without any health insura nce. So it's one of my top priorities. Now, I know that we have some disagreements on this. And I'm sorry to tell you that, you know, there is a record here and Texas ranks 49th out of the 50 states in health care in children with health care. 49th for women with health care, and 50th for families with health care. So it is a priority for me. I guarantee you. I'm not aware of any program -- well, I'll just leave it at that. I think it ought to be a top priority.

MODERATOR:

Governor, did the vice president's figures correct about Texas?

BUSH:

First of all let me say he's not for a government-run health care system I thought that's exactly what he and Mrs. Clinton and them fought for in 1993 was a government-run health care system. It was fortunately stopped in its tracks. Seco ndly we spend 4.7 billion a year on the uninsured in the State of Texas. Our rate of uninsured, the percentage of uninsured in Texas has gone down by the percentage of uninsured in America has gone up. Our chips program got a late start because our government meets only four months out of every two years Mr. Vice President. May come as a shock to somebody has been in Washington for so long. Therefore, Congress passes a bill after our session in 1997 ended we passed an enabling legislation in 1999. We signed up over 100 10,000 children to the chips program for comparable states our size we're signing them up as fast as any other state. You can quote all the numbers you want but I'm telling you we care about our people in Texas. We spent a lot of money to make sure people get health care in the State o f Texas and we're doing a better job than they are at the national level for reducing uninsured.

MODERATOR:

Is he right?

GORE:

I don't know about all these percentages that he throws out but I do know that -- I speculate that the reason why he didn't answer your question directly as to whether my numbers were right, the facts were right about Texas ranking dead last in families with health insurance and 49th out of 50 for both children and women is because those facts are correct. And as for why it happened, I'm no expert on the Texas procedures, but what my friends there tell me is that the governor opposed a measure put forward by Democrats in the legislature to expand the number of children that would be covered. And instead directed the money toward a tax cut, a significant part o f which went to wealthy interests. He declared the need for a new tax cut for the oil companies in Texas, an emergency need and so the money was taken away from the chip program. There's -- you don't have to take my word for this. There is now a federal judge's opinion about the current management of this program ordering the State of Texas to do -- you should read that judge's language about this. I believe there are 1.4 million children in Texas who do not have health insurance. 600,000 of whom, maybe some of those have since gotten it, but as of a year ago 600,000 of them were actually eligible for it but they couldn't sign up for it because of the barriers they had set up.

MODERATOR:

Let's let the governor respond to that? Are his charges correct and the numbers correct?

B USH:

If he's trying to allege I'm a hard hearted person and don't care about children he's absolutely wrong. We've spent 4.7 billion dollars a year in the State of Texas for uninsured people. And they get health care. Now, it's not the most efficient way to get people health care. I want to remind you the number of uninsured people in America during their watch has increased the facts that we're reducing the number of uninsured population. Somehow the allegation that we don't care and we're going to give money for this interest or that interest and not for children in the State of Texas is totally absurd. Let me tell you who the jury is. The people of Texas. There's only been one governor ever elected back to back four-year terms and that was me and I was able to do so with a lot of Democrat votes, nearly 50% of the Hispanic vote. 27% of the African-American vote because people know I'm a conservative person and a compassionate person. He can throw all the kinds of numbers. Our state comes together to do what is right. We come together both Republicans and Democrats.

MODERATOR:

Let me put that directly to you, Vice President Gore. The reason you brought this up is it -- are you suggesting that those numbers and that record will reflect the way Governor Bush will operate in this area of health insurance as president?

GORE:

Yes, yes, but it's not a statement about his heart. I don't claim to know his heart. I think he's a good person. I make no allegations about that. I believe him when he says that he has a good heart. I know enough about your s tory to admire a lot of the things that you have done as a person. But I think it's about his priorities. Let me tell you exactly why I think that the choice he made to give a tax cut for the oil companies and others before addressing this -- I mean if you were the governor of a state that was dead last in health care for families and all of a sudden you found yourself with the biggest surplus your state had ever had in its history. Wouldn't you want to maybe use some of it to climb from 50th to say 45 or 40 or something or maybe better? I would. Now here is why it's directly relevant, Jim. Because by his own budget numbers, his proposals for spending on tax cuts for the wealthiest of the wealthy are more than the new spending proposals that he has made for health care and education and nation al defense all combined. According to his own numbers. It's not a question of his heart. As far as I know it's a question of priorities and values. See, you know -- MODERATOR:

Let me ask BUSH:

First of all that's simply not true what he said.

MODERATOR:

What is not true, governor?

BUSH:

The top 1% -- the top -- let's talk about my tax plan. The top 1% will pay one-third of all the federal income taxes. And in return, get one-fifth of the benefits because most of the tax reductions go to the people at the bottom end of the economic ladder. That stands in stark contrast for a man who will leave 50 million Americans out of tax relief. We have a different point of view. It's a totally different point of view. He believes only the right people ought to get tax relief. I think everybody who pays taxes ought to get tax relief. I can't emphasize to you. I signed a bill that put chips in place. The bill finally came out at the end of the 1999 session. We're working hard to sign up children and doing it faster than any other state our size. Comparable state. We're making really good progress. Our state cares a lot about our children. My priority is going to be the health of our citizens. These folks have had eight years to get something done in Washington, D.C. They've had eight years to get something done on Medicare. They haven't got it done. My case to the American people is if you're happy with inactivity stay with the horse. The horse is up there now. If you want change you need to get somebody that knows how to bring Republicans and Democrats together to get positive things done for American MODERATOR:

New question, new subject. Vice President Gore on the en environment in your 1992 book you said, quote, we must make the rescue of our environment the central organizing principle for civilization and there must be a wrenching transformation to save the planet. Do you still feel that way?

GORE:

I do. I think in this 21st century we will soon see the consequences of what is called global warming. There was a study just a few weeks ago suggesting that in summertime the north polar ice cap will be completely gone in 50 years. Already people see the strange weather conditions that the old timers say they've never seen before in their lifetimes. And what is happening is the level of pollution is increasing significantly. Now, here is t he good news, Jim. If we take the leadership role and build the new technologist like the new kinds of cars and trucks that Detroit is itching to build, then we can create millions of good new jobs by being first into the market with these new kinds of cars and trucks and other kinds of technologies. You know the Japanese are breathing down our necks on this. They're moving very rapidly because they know that it is a fast-growing world market. Some of these other countries particularly in the developing world their pollution is much worse than anywhere else and their people want higher standards of living. They're looking for ways to satisfy their desire for a better life and still reduce pollution at the same time. I think that holding onto the old ways and the old argument that the environment and the economy are in conflict is really outdated. We have to be bold. We have to provide leadership. It's true that we disagree on this. Governor said that he doesn't think this problem is necessarily caused by people. He's for letting the oil companies into the arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Houston has just become the smoggy city in the country. We have a very different outlook. Oil he fight for a clean en environment in ways that strengthen our economy.

BUSH:

Let me start with Texas. We are a big industrial state. We reduced our industrial waste by 11%. We cleaned up 450 brown fields. It's an abandoned industrial site that sits idle in some of our urban centers. People -- I think we ought to have federal liability protection depending upon whether or not standards have been met . The book you mentioned that Vice President Gore wrote, he also called for taxing big energy taxes in order to clean up the environment and now that the energy prices are high I guess he's not advocating those big energy taxes right now. I believe we ought to fully fund the land and water conservation fund to -- with half the money going to states so states the make the right decisions foreign vier on meantal quality. We need to have clean coal technologies. I propose $2 billion worth. I found out the other day an interesting fact there is a national petroleum reserve right next to in PRUDHO E-Bay that your administration opened up in that pristine area. That was a smart decision. Gas is a clean fuel that we can burn to -- we need to make sure that if we do control our plants that there's m andatory -- that the plants must conform to clean air standards, the grandfather plants that's what we did in Texas, no excuses. You must conform. In other words there's practical things we can do it starts to work in a collaborative effort with state and local folks. If you own the land every day is earth day. People care a lot about their land and environment. Not all wisdom is in Washington, D.C. on this issue.

MODERATOR:

Where do you see the basic difference between you and the governor on the environment? If a voter wants to make a choice, what is it?

GORE:

I'm really strongly committed to clean water and clean air. And cleaning up the new kinds of challenges like global warming. He is right that I'm not in favor of energy taxes. I am in favor of tax cuts to encourage and give incentives for the quicker development of these new kinds of technologies and let me say again, Detroit is rearing to go on that. We differ on the arctic national wildlife refuge, as I have said. We differ on whether or not pollution controls ought to be voluntary. I don't think you can -- I don't think you can get results that way. We differ on the kinds of appointments that we would make.

MODERATOR:

What is the a fundamental difference? We've talked about supply. I want to know we're -- we're getting close to the end of our time here. Somebody wanted to vote on the environment how would you draw the differences, governor?

BUSH:

I don't believe in command and control out of Washington, D.C. I believe they ought to set standards but we need to be kol collaborative at the local levels and work with people at the local levels and by the way I want to make sure -- I can't let him just say something and not correct it. Electric decontrol bill that I fought for and signed in Texas has mandatory emission standards, Mr. Vice President. That's what we ought to do at the federal level when it comes to grandfather plants for utilities. I think there's a difference. Take -- when they took 40 million acres of land out of circulation without consulting local officials. I thought that was -- that was out in the west and so -- on the logging issue. That's not the way I would have done it. Perhaps some of that land needs to be set aside. I certainly would have consulted with governors and elected officials before I would have acted unilaterally.

MODERATOR:

D o you believe the federal government still has some new rules and new regulations and new laws to pass in the environmental areas?

BUSH:

Absolutely as long as they're based upon science and reasonable. So long as people have input.

MODERATOR:

What about global warming?

BUSH:

It's an issue we need to take very seriously. We don't know the solution to global warming yet. I tell you one thing I'm not going to do, let the United States carry the burden for cleaning up the world's air. China and India were exempted from a treaty. I think we need to be more even handed. I think it was 99 senators supported that position.

MODERATOR:

Global warming, the Senate did turn it down. I think -- BUSH:

99 to nothing.

GORE:

That vote wasn't exactly. A lot of the sup porters of the treaty voted for it because the way it was worded. There is a lot of opposition to it in the Senate. I'm not for command and control techniques either. I'm for working with the groups not with just industry but also with citizen groups and local communities to control sprawl in ways that the local communities themselves come up with. But I disagree that we don't know the cause of global warming. I think that we do. It's pollution, carbon dioxide and other chemicals that are even more potent but in smaller quantities that cause this. Look, the world temperature is going up, weather patterns are changing, storms are getting more violent and unpredictable what will we tell our children? I'm a grandfather now. I want to be able to tell my grandson when I'm in my later year s that I didn't turn away from the evidence that showed that we were doing some serious harm in my faith tradition it is it's written in the book of Matthew, where your heart is, there is your treasure also. And I believe that -- that we ought to recognize the value to our children and grandchildren of taking steps that preserve the environment in a way that's good for them.

BUSH:

I agree. I think there has been -- some of the scientists haven't they been changing their opinion on global warming. A scientist made a -- MODERATOR:

Both of you have now violated your own rules.

GORE:

I've been trying so hard not to.

MODERATOR:

MODERATOR:

Under you are rules you aren't allowed to ask each other a question. I let you do it a moment ago. Twice, sorry. [LAUGHTER]

GORE:

That 's an interruption.

MODERATOR:

Anyhow you just did it.

BUSH:

I apologize, Mr. Vice President.

MODERATOR:

You aren't allowed to do that either, see? [LAUGHTER] I'm sorry, go ahead and finish your thought. People care about these things.

BUSH:

Oh, you mean the rules. [LAUGHTER]

MODERATOR:

Go ahead.

BUSH:

Of course there's a lot -- global warming needs to be taken very seriously and I take it seriously but science, there's differ opinions. Before we reabt I think it's best to have the full accounting. Full understanding of what is taking place. And I think to answer your question, I think both of us care a lot about the environment. We may have different approaches. We may have different approaches in terms of how we deal with local folks. I just cited an example of the administration unilaterally acting without any input. You gave a very answer to New Hampshire about the white mountains. It certainly wasn't the attitude that took place out west, however.

MODERATOR:

New question. Last question. For you, governor. This flows somewhat out of the Boston debate. You, your running mate your campaign officials have charged that Vice President Gore exaggerates, embellishs and stretches the facts. Etcetera. Do you believe these are serious issues? This is a serious issues that the voters should use in deciding which one of you two men to vote for on November 7?

BUSH:

We all make mistakes. I've been known to mangle a syllable or two myself, if you know what I mean. I think credibility is important. It is going to be importa nt for the president to be credible with Congress, important for the president to be credible with foreign nations and yes, I think it's something that people need to consider. This isn't something new. I read a report or a memo from somebody in 1988 campaign I forgot the fellow's name warning then Senator Gore to be careful about exaggerating claims. I felt during his debate with Senator Bradley saying he authored the EITC when it didn't happen. The earned income tax credit, sorry. A lot of initials for a guy who's not from Washington, isn't it? Anyway, he co-sponsored McCain Feingold and yet he didn't. I think it's a issue. I found it an issue in trying to defend my tax relief package. There was some exaggeration about the numbers. The people will have to make up their mind on this is sue. And I am going to continue to defend my record and defend my propositions against what I think are exaggerations. Exaggerations like for example only 5% of seniors receive benefits under my Medicare reform package. That's what he said the other day and that's not the case. I have every right in the world to defend my record and positions that's what debates and campaigns are about.

MODERATOR:

Vice President Gore.

GORE:

I got some of the details wrong last week in the examples I used last week and I'm sorry about that and I'm going to try to do better. One of the reasons I regret getting a detail wrong interfered several times with the point that I was trying to make. However many days that young girl in Florida stood in her classroom, however long, even if it was only o ne day doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of overcrowded classrooms in America and we need to do something about that. There are seniors who pay more for their prescriptions than a lot of other people. More than their pets, sometimes, more sometimes than people in foreign countries. And we need to do something about that. Not with the measure that leaves the majority of them without any real basic help until the next president's term of four years is over. But right away. And that means doing it under the Medicare program. I can't promise that I will never get another detail wrong. I can promise you that I will try not to. And hard. But I will promise you this with all the confidence in my heart and in the world, that I will do my best if I'm elected president, I'll work my heart out to get the big things right for the American people.

MODERATOR:

Does that resolve the issue, governor?

BUSH:

That is going to be up to the people.

MODERATOR:

Does it resolve it to you?

BUSH:

Depends on what he says in the future in the campaign.

MODERATOR:

You folks are saying some awful things.

BUSH:

I hope they're not awful things.

MODERATOR:

What I mean is calling him a serial exaggerate or.

BUSH:

I don't believe I used those words.

MODERATOR:

Your campaign officials have. Your campaign officials Mr. Vice President are now calling the governor a bum bler.

BUSH:

Wait a minute.

MODERATOR:

My point is is this -- GORE:

I don't use language like that and I don't think that we should.

MODERATOR:

It's in your commercials.

GORE:

I understand. In my commercials?

MODERATOR:

In your commercial.

GORE:

I think the point of that is that anybody would have a hard time trying to make a tax cut plan that is so large that would put us into such big deficits that gives almost half the benefits to the wealthiest of the wealthy. I think anybody would have a hard time explaining that clearly in a way that makes sense to the average person.

BUSH:

That's the kind of exaggeration I was just talking about. [LAUGHTER]

GORE:

Well, I wasn't the one having trouble explaining it.

MODERATOR:

Gentlemen, it's time to go to the closing statements and Vice President Gore, you have two minutes.

GORE:

Jim, one of the issues that I would like to close with in my statement is education because it's an example of the overall approach that I think is important. This race is about values, it's about change, it's about giving choices to the American people. And education is my number one priority. Because I think that it's the most important big major change that we can bring in our country. I agree with Governor Bush that we should have new accountability, testing of students. I think that we should require states to test all students, test schools and school districts and I think that we should go further and require teacher testing for new teachers also. The difference is that while my plan starts with new accountability and maintains local control, it doesn't stop there. Because I want to give new choices to parents. To send their kids to college with a $10,000 tax deductio n for college tuition per child per year. I want to reduce the size of the classrooms in this country. For one basic reason, so that students can get more one-on-one time with teachers. And the way to do that is first to recruit more teachers. I've a plan in my budget to recruit 100,000 new highly qualified teachers and to help local school districts build new schools. I think that we have to put more emphasis on early learning and pre-school. Now, here is how that connects with all the rest of what we've been talking about. If you have -- if you squander the surplus on a huge tax cut that goes mostly to those at the top, then you can't make education the top priority. If the tax cut is your number one, two, three, four priority you can't do education. You can't do both. You have to choose. I choose education and health care, the environment and retirement security and I ask for your support.

MODERATOR:

Governor Bush, two minutes.

BUSH:

I would like to thank the folks here at Wake Forest and thank you all for listening. I'm running to get some things done for America. There's too many issues left unresolved. There's been too much finger pointing and too much name calling in Washington, D.C. I would like to unite this country to get an agenda done that will speak to the hopes and aspirations of the future. I want to have an education system that sets high standards, local control of schools and strong accountability. No child should be left behind in America. I want to make sure we rebuild our military to keep the peace. I worry about March y'all in to day's military. The warning signs are clear it is time to have a new commander and chief who will rebuild the military. Pay our men and women more, have a focused mission for our military. I want to do something about Medicare. The issue has been too long on the table. It's time to bring folks together to say that all seniors get prescription drug coverage. I want to do something about Social Security. It's an important priority because now is the time to act and we're going to say to our seniors our promises we've made to you will be promises kept. Younger workers in order to make sure the system exists tomorrow younger workers ought to take some of your own money and invest it in safe security to get a better rate of return on that money. I believe in tax relief. I believe we can set our pr iorities. I don't believe like the vice president does in huge government. I believe in limited government. By having a limited and focused government we can send some of the money back to the people who pay the bills. I want to have tax relief for all people who pay the bills in America. I think you can spend your money more wisely than the federal government can. Thank you for listening. I'm asking for your vote and God bless.

MODERATOR:

And we will return next Tuesday night, October 17th from Washington University in St. Louis for the third and final debate. Thank you Vice President Gore, Governor Bush. See you next week. For now from Winston SALEM I'm Jim Lehrer, good night. [APPLAUSE]