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MODERATOR:

Good evening from the field house at Washington University in St. Louis, I'm Jim Lehrer of the news hour on PBS and I welcome you to this third and final campaign 2000 debate between the Democratic candidate for president, vice ice President Al Gore, and the Republican candidate, Governor George W. Bush of Texas. Let's welcome the candidates now. [APPLAUSE]

MODERATOR:

Before proceeding tonight, we would like to observe a moment of silence in memory of Governor Mel Carnahan of Missouri who, along with his son and his former Chief of Staff, died in a private plane crash last night near St. Louis. A reminder, as we continue now, that these debates are sponsored by the Bipartisan Commission on Presidential Debates. The formats and the rules were worked out by the commissi on and the two campaigns. Tonight's questions will be asked by St. Louis area voters who were identified as being uncommitted by the Gallup organization. Earlier today, each of them wrote a question on a small card like this. Those cards were collected and then given to me this afternoon. My job under the rules of the evening was to decide the order the questions will be asked and to call on the questioners accordingly. I also have the option of asking follow-ups, which in order to get to more of the panel's questions for the record I plan to do sparingly and mostly for clarifications. The audience participants are bound by the following rules. They shall not ask follow-up questions or otherwise participate in the extended discussion and the questioners microphone will be turned off after he or she completes asking the question. Those are the rules. As in Winston-Salem last week no single answer or response from a candidate can exceed two minutes. There is an audience here in the hall and they have promised to remain absolutely quiet, as did their predecessors this year in Boston, Danville and Winston-Salem. Before we begin, a correction from last week's debate. I was wrong when I said Vice President Gore's campaign commercials had called Governor Bush a bumbler. That specific charge was made in a press statement by -- not in a TV ad. Now, let's go to the first question. Of over the 130 questions we received from this panel, we will begin with one of the 19 on health issues and it goes to you, Mr. Vice President and it will be asked by James HANKENS.

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

How do you feel about HMO's and insurance companies making the critical decisions that affect people's lives instead of the medical professionals and why are the HMO's and insurance companies held accountable for their decisions?

GORE:

I don't feel good about it and I think we ought to have a patient's bill of rights to take the medical decisions away from the HMO's and give them back to the doctors and the nurses. I want to come back and tell you why, but if you will forgive me, I would like to say something right now at the beginning of this debate following on the moment of silence for Mel Carnahan and Randy Carnahan and Chris Sifford. Tipper and I were good friends with Mel and Randy. And I know that all of us here want to extend our sympathy and condolences to Jean and the family and to th e Sifford family. I would just like to say that this debate in a way is a living tribute to Mel Carnahan because he loved the vigorous discussion of ideas in our democracy. He was a fantastic governor of Missouri. His state became one of the top five in the nation for health care coverage for children under his leadership. One of the best in advancing all kinds of benefits for children to grow up healthy and strong. And, of course, this debate also takes place at a time when the tragedy of the USS Cole is on our minds and hearts and insofar as the memorial services tomorrow, I would like to also extend sympathy to the families of those who have died and those who are still missing. And the injured. Now, Mr. HANKENS, I think that the situation that you described has gotten completely o ut of hand. Doctors are giving prescriptions, they're recommending treatment and then their recommendations are being overruled by HMO's and insurance companies. That is unacceptable. I support a strong national patient's bill of rights. It is actually a disagreement between us. The national law that is penning on this, the ding will noor wood bill is -- is one I support and the governor does not.

MODERATOR:

Two minutes response Governor Bush.

BUSH:

I, too, want to extend my prayers and God's blessings on the families whose lives were overturned last night. A tragic moment. Actually, Mr. Vice President, it's not true I do support a national patient's bill of rights. As a matter of fact, I brought Republicans and Democrats together to do just that in the State of Texas to get a pa tient's bill of rights through. It requires a different kind of leadership style to do it, though. You see, in order to get something done on behalf of the people, you have to put partisanship aside. And that's what we did in my state. We have one of the most advanced patient's bill of rights. It says for example that a woman doesn't have to go through a gate keeper to go to here gynecologist. It says that you can't gag a doctor, Doctor can advise you, the HMO and insurance company can't gag that doctor from giving you full advice. In this particular bill it allows patients to choose their own doctor if they want to. We did something else that was interesting. We are one of the first states that said you can sue an HMO for denying you proper coverage. Now, there's what's called an independ ent review organization that you have to go through first. It says if you've got a complaint with your insurance company, you can take your complaint to an objective body. If the objective body rules on your behalf the insurance company must follow those rules. However, if the insurance company doesn't follow the findings of the IRO, then that becomes a cause of action in a court of law. It's time for our nation to come together and do what is right for the people. And I think this is right for the people. I support a national patient's bill of rights, Mr. Vice President. And I want all people covered. I don't want the law to supersede good law like we've got in Texas. I think -- MODERATOR:

Governor, time is up.

GORE:

We have a direct disagreement on this.

MODERATOR:

Jus t a minute, Mr. Vice President. The way the rules go here, two minutes, two minutes and I'll decide whether we go on. Okay? So what I want to make sure is we understand here is before we go on to another question in the health area, would you agree that -- you two agree on a national patient's bill of rights.

GORE:

Absolutely not. I referred to the DINGLE norwood bill. It's the bipartisan bill now pending in the Congress. The HMO's and insurance companies support the other bill that's pending, the one the Republican majority has put forward. They like it because it doesn't accomplish what I think needs to be accomplished. It gives the decisions back to the doctors and nurses and to give you a right of appeal to somebody other than the HMO or insurance company, let you go to the nearest emergency room without having to call an HMO before you call 911. To let you see a specialist if you need to. And it has strong bipartisan port support. It's being blocked by the Republican leadership in the Congress. I want to know whether Governor Bush will support the DINGLE norwood bill which is the main one pending.

MODERATOR:

You can answer that.

BUSH:

The difference is I can get it done. That I can get something positive done on behalf of the people. That's what the question in this campaign is about. It's not only what your philosophy and what is your position on issues, but can you get things done? And I believe I can.

MODERATOR:

What about the DINGLE-norwood bill?

BUSH:

I talked about the principles and issues that I think are important in a patient's bill of rights. Now it's kind of Washington, D.C. focus in this committee it has this sponsor. If I'm the president we'll have emergency room care, we'll have gag orders. Direct access to OB/GYN. People take their HMO insurance company to court. That's what I've done in Texas and that's the kind of leadership style I'll bring to Washington.

ODERATOR:

The next question on health issue it will be asked by Marie Payne KLAPEY and it goes to Governor Bush.

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

Are either of you concerned with -- okay. Are either of you concerned with finding some feasible way to lower the price of pharmaceutical drugs such as education on minimizing intake, revafrnl of the FDA processor streamline the drug company's procedure instead of just finding more money to pay for them?

BUSH:

That's a great question. I think one of the problems we have particularly for seniors is there's no prescription drug coverage in Medicare. And therefore when they have to fry to purchase drugs they do so on their own, no kind of collective bargaining. No power of purchasing among seniors. I think step one to make sure prescription drugs is more affordable for seniors, those are the folks who really rely upon prescription drugs allot these days is to reform the Medicare system. Have prescription drugs as an integral part of Medicare once and for all. The problem we have today is that like the patient's bill of rights, particularly health care there's a lot of bickering in Washington, D.C. It's kind of like a political issue as opposed to a people issue. So what I want to do is I want to call upon Republicans and Democrats to forget all the argueing and finger pointing and come together and take care of our seniors prescription drug program. That says we'll pay for the poor seniors, we'll help all seniors with prescription drugs, and in the meantime I think it's important to have what is called immediate helping hand. Which is direct money to states so that seniors -- poor seniors don't have to choose between food and medicine. That's part of an overall overhaul. The purchasing power -- I'm against price controls. I think price controls would hurt our ability to continue important research and development. Drug therapies are replacing a lot of medicines as we used to know it. One of the most important things is to continue the research and development component so I'm against p rice controls. Expediting drugs through the FDA makes sense of course. Allowing the new bill passed in the Congress made sense to allow for drugs that were sold overseas to come back and other countries to come back in the United States. That makes sense. But the best thing to do is to reform Medicare.

MODERATOR:

Vice President Gore, two minutes.

GORE:

Here we go again. Now look, if you want someone who will spend a lot of words describing a whole convoluted process and then end up supporting legislation that is supported by the big drug companies, this is your man. If you want someone who will fight for you and who will fight for the middle-class families and working men and women who are sick and tired of having their parents and grandparents pay higher prices for prescriptio n drugs than anybody else, then I want to fight for you. And you ask a great question because it's not only seniors. Listen, for 24 years I have never been afraid to take on the big drug companies. They do some great things. They discover great new cures and that's great. We want them to continue that. But they are now spending more money on advertising and promotion. You see all these ads, than they are on research and development. They are trying to extend the monopoly patent protection to keep charging high prices. I want to streamline the approval of the competing generic drugs and the new kinds of treatments that can compete with them so we bring the price down for everybody. Now, briefly let me tell you how my prescription drug plan works. The governor talked about Medicare. I p ropose a real prescription drug benefit under Medicare for all seniors, all seniors, here is how it works. You pick your own doctor and nobody can take that away from you. The doctor chooses the prescription that you need and nobody can overrule your doctor. You go to your own pharmacy and then Medicare pays half the price. In you're poor they Pennsylvania all of it. If you have extraordinary high costs they pay over $4,000 out out-of-pocket. I'll bring new competition to bring the price down. If you pass the big drug company's bill nothing will happen.

MODERATOR:

All right another health question. It comes from Vickie French and it's for you, Vice President Gore. Vickie French, where are you? There she is. Yes.

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

We spend billions of dollars -- pay billions of d ollars in taxes. Would you open a national health care plan for everybody and if not, why, if so, is there something you would try to implement if you're elected into office and what would you do to implement this plan?

GORE:

I think we should move step by step toward universal health coverage, but I am not in favor of government doing it all. We've spent 65 years now on the development of a hybrid system partly private and partly public and 85% of our people have health insurance, 15% don't. That adds up to 44 million people. That's a national outrage. We have got to get health coverage for those who do not have it. And we've got to improve the quality for those who do with a patient's bill of rights that's real and that works. The DINGLE-norwood bill. We have to bring pair t ea for the treatment of mental illness because that's been left out. We have to deal with long-term care. Here are the steps that I would take first of all. I will make a commitment to bring health care coverage of high quality that is affordable to every single child in America within four years. And then we'll fill other gaps by covering the parents of those children when the family is poor or up to two-and-a-half times the poverty rate. I want to give a tax credit for the purchase of individual health insurance plans. I want to give small business employers a tax credit, 25% to encourage the providing of health insurance for the employees in small businesses. I want to give seniors who are -- well, the near elderly. I don't like that term because I'm just about in that category. But tho se 55 to 65 ought to be able to buy into Medicare for premiums that are reasonable and fair and significantly below what they have to get now. Now, we have a big difference on this. And you need to know the record here. Under Governor Bush, Texas has sunk to be 50th out of 50 in health care -- in health insurance for their citizens. Last week he said that they were spending $3.7 billion -- $4.7 billion on this.

MODERATOR:

Time is up. Governor Bush, two minutes.

BUSH:

I'm absolutely opposed to a national health care plan. I don't want the federal government making decisions for consumers or for providers. I remember what the administration tried to do in 1993. They tried to have a national health care plan. And fortunately it failed. I trust people, I don't trust the fed eral government. It will be one of the themes you hear tonight. I don't want the federal government making decisions on behalf of everybody. There is an issue with the uninsured. There sure is. And we have to got uninsured people in our state. Ours is a big, fast-growing state. We share a common border with another nation. But we're providing health care for our people. One thing about insurance, that's a Washington term. The question is are people getting health care and we have a strong safety net. There needs to be a safety net in America. There needs to be more community health clinics where the poor can go get health care. We need a program for the uninsured. They've been talking about it in Washington, D.C. The number of uninsured have now gone up for the past seven years.

We need a $2,000 credit rebate for people working people who don't have insurance they can get in the marketplace and start purchasing insurance. We need to have -- allow small businesses to write insurance across jurisdictional lines so small businesses can afford health care. Health care needs to be affordable and available. We have to trust people to make decisions with their lives. In the Medicare reform I talk about it says if you're a senior, you can stay in Medicare if you like it. And that's fine. But we're going to give you other choices to choose if you want to do so just like they do the federal employees. The people who work in Washington, D.C. for the U.S.Congress and the United States Senate. Get a variety of choices to make in their lives. That's what we ought to do for all people in America.

MODERATOR:

Governor -- GORE:

Can I follow up?

MODERATOR:

Not right now. Education. These folks submitted 18 questions on education and the first one is -- that will be asked on education will go to you, governor and will be asked by Angie PEDIK. Where are you?

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

I've heard a lot about education and the need to hold teachers and school accountable and I certainly agree with that. As an individual with an educational background and also a parent, I have seen a lot of instances where the parents are unresponsive to the teachers or flat out uninvolved in their child's education. How do you intend to not only hold the teachers and schools accountable but also hold parents accountable?

BUSH:

Well, you know, it's hard to make people love one another. I wish I knew the law because I would darn sure sign it. I wish I knew the law that said all of us would be good parents. One of the things the next president must do is to remind people if you're going to have a responsible period in America that each of us must love our children with all our heart and all our soul. I happen to believe strong accountability encourages parental involvement, though. I think when you measure and post results on the Internet or in the town newspapers most parents say, wait a minute, my child's school isn't doing what I want it to do and therefore become involved in education. I recognize there are some who just don't seem to care. But there are a lot of parents who feel like everything is going well in their child's school and all of a sud den they wake up and realize that wait a minute, standards aren't being met. That's why I'm so strong for accountability. I believe we ought to measure a lot, three, four, five, six, seven, 8th grade. One of the good things we've done in Texas is we have strong accountability. You can't cure unless you know. You can't solve a problem unless you've diagnosed it. I strongly believe that one of the best things to encourage parental involvement also is to know that the classrooms will be safe and secure. That's why I support a teacher liability act at the federal level. It says if a teacher or principal upholds reasonable standards of classroom discipline they can't be sued. They can't be sued. I think parents will be more involved with education when they know their children's classrooms ar e safe and secure as well. I also believe that we need to say to people that if you cannot meet standards, there has to be a consequence. Instead of just kind of a soft bigot RY of low expectation. We need to allow parents to have different choices.

MODERATOR:

Vice President Gore?

GORE:

We have a huge difference between us on this question. I want to start by telling you what my vision is. I see a day in the United States of America where all our public schools are considered excellent. World class. Where there are no failing schools. Where the classrooms are small enough in size, number of students, so that the teacher can spend enough one-on-one time with each student. Now, that means recruiting new teachers for the public schools. It means in my plan hiring bonuses to get 100,000 new teachers in the public schools within the next four years. It means also helping local school districts that sometimes find the parents of school age children outvoted on bond issues to give them some help with interest-free bonding authority so we can build new schools and modernize the classroom. We need to give teachers the training and development they need including paid time off to go visit the classroom of a master teacher to pick up some new skills. I want to give every middle-class family a $10,000 a year tax deduction for college tuition. So that middle-class families will always be able to send their kids on to college. I want to work for universal preschool because we know from all the studies that the youngsters learn -- kids learn more in the first few years of life than anywhere else. I said there was a contrast. Governor Bush is for vouchers and in his plan he proposes to drain more money, more taxpayer money out of the public schools for private school vouchers than all of the money that he proposes in his entire budget for public schools themselves and only 1 in 20 students would be eligible for these vouchers and they wouldn't even pay the full tuition to private schools. I don't think that's a mistake. I don't think we should give up on the private schools. I think we should make it the number one priority to make our schools the best in the world, all of them.

MODERATOR:

Governor, what is your position on that?

BUSH:

I appreciate that. I think anytime we end with one of these attacks it's appropriate to respond. Here is what I think. F irst of all vouchers are up to states. If you want to do a voucher program in Missouri. I believe in local control of schools. I'm the governor of a state and I don't like it what the federal government tells us what to do. I believe in local control of schools. Here is what I said. I've said to the extent we send federal money on disadvantaged children, we want the schools to show us whether or not the children are learning. What's unreasonable about that? We expect there to be standards met and we expect there to be measurement. And if we find success we'll praise it. But when we find children trapped in schools that will not change and will not teach instead of saying oh, this is okay in America just to shuffle poor kids through schools, there has to be a consequence. And the co nsequence is that federal portion of federal money will go to the parent so the parent can go to a tutoring program or another public school or another private school. Or a private school. You see, there has to be a consequence. We have a society that says hey, the status quo is fine, just move them through. Guess who suffers?

MODERATOR:

What's the other side on that.

GORE:

The program that he's proposing is not the one that he just described. Under your plan, Governor Bush states would be required to pay vouchers to students to match the vouchers that the federal government would put up. Now, -- and the way it would happen is that under his plan if a school was designated as failing the kids would be trapped there for another three years and then some of them would get fe deral vouchers and the state would be forced to match those -- that money. Under my plan, if a school is failing, we work with the states to give them the authority and the resources to close down that school and reopen it right away with a new principal, a new faculty, a turn around team of specialists who know what they're doing. It's based on the plan of governor Jim hunt in North Carolina and it works great.

MODERATOR:

No vouchers in a Gore administration?

GORE:

If I thought that there was no alternative, then I might feel differently but I have an obligation to fight to make sure there are no failing schools. We've got to turn around -- most schools are excellent but we've got to make sure that all of them are.

MODERATOR:

An drew has a related question on education t hat is right on this subject. It's for Vice President Gore.

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

Mr. Vice President -- in a school district in which I work and in countless others across the nation, we face crumbling school buildings, increased school violence, student apathy, overcrowding, lack of funding, lawsuits, the list goes on. I could mention low teacher pay but I won't. [LAUGHTER] What can you tell me and my fellow American teachers today about your plans for our immediate future?

GORE:

What grade do you teach?

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

That's going against your rules, president Gore.

GORE:

High school? I mentioned before that the local communities are having a harder time passing bond issues. Traditionally if you've been involved in a campaign like that you know that parents with kids in school are the ones that turn out and vote. It's ironic that there are know -- there's now a smaller percentage of the voters made up of parents with children than ever in American history because of the aging of our population. At the same time we have the largest generation of students in public schools ever. More than 90% of America's children go to public schools. It's the largest number ever this year and they'll break the record next year and every year for ten years running. We have to do something about this. It's not enough to leave it up to the local school districts. They're not able to do it. Our future depends upon it. We're in an information age. Our economic future depends upon whether or not our children are going to get the kind of education that lets t hem go on to college and again I want to make it possible for all middle-class families to send their kids to college and more Pell grants for those in the lower income groups also and I want to make sure we have job training on top of that and life-long learning but it all starts with the public school teachers. My proposal gives $10,000 hiring bonuses for those teachers who are -- who get certified to teach in the areas where they're most needed. Now, accountability, we basically agree on accountability. My plan requires testing of all students. It also requires something that Governor Bush's plan doesn't. It requires testing of all new teachers, including in the subject that they teach. We have to start treating teachers like the profession always that they are and give them the res pect and the kind of quality of life that will draw more people into teaching because we need a lot more teachers.

MODERATOR:

Governor Bush, two minutes.

BUSH:

When you total up all the federal spending he wants to do, it's the largest increase in federal spending in years. And there's just not going to be enough money. I have been a governor of a big state. I've made education my number one priority. That's what governors ought to do. They ought to say this is the most important thing we do as a state. The federal government puts about 6% of the money up. They put about, you know, 60% of the strings where you have to fill out the paperwork. I don't know if you have to be a paperwork filler outer but most of it is because of the federal government. What I want to do is send flexibility and authority to the local folks so you can choose what to do with the money. One size does not fit all. I would worry about federalizeing education if I were you. I believe strongly that the federal government can help. We need to fund head start. We need to have accountability. The vice president's plan does not have annual accountability. Third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade. We need to demand results. I believe strongly in a teacher protection act like I mentioned. I hear from teachers all the time about the lawsuits and the threats, respect in the classroom. Part of it is because you can't -- you can't control the classroom. You can't have a consequence for somebody without fear of getting sued under federal law. So I'm going to ask the Congress to pass a teach er protection act so I believe in flexibility. I believe in a national reading initiative for local districts to access with K-2 diagnostic testing, curriculum works. Phonics works, there needs to be flexibility for teacher training and hiring with federal money. The federal government can be a part, but don't fall prey to all this stuff about money here and money there because education is really funded at the local level. 94% comes from the local level.

MODERATOR:

Vice President Gore is the governor right that you're proposing the largest federal spending in years?

GORE:

Absolutely not. I'm so glad I have a chance to knock that down. Look, the problem is that under Governor Bush's plan, $1.6 trillion tax cut mostly to the wealthy under his own budget numbers he proposes spend ing more money for a tax cut just for the wealthiest 1% than all the new money he budgets for education, health care and national defense combined. Now under my plan we'll balance the budget every year. I'm not just saying this. I'm not just talking. I have helped to balance the budget for the first time in 30 years, paid down the debt and under my plan, in four years as the percentage of our gross domestic product our spending will be the smallest in 50 years. The third biggest spending item in our budget is interest on the national debt? We get nothing for it. We keep the good faith and credit of the United States. I will pay down the debt every single year until it is eliminated early in the next decade. That gets rid of the third biggest intrusion of the federal government in our ec onomy. Now, because the governor has all this money for a tax cut mostly to the wealthy, there is no money left over so schools get testings and lawsuit reform and not much else.

MODERATOR:

Governor, the vice president says you're wrong.

BUSH:

Well, he's wrong. [LAUGHTER] Just add up all the numbers it's three times bigger than what President Clinton proposed. The Senate Budget Committee.

MODERATOR:

Three times bigger than what President Clinton proposed.

GORE:

That was in an ad the journalists said was misleading.

BUSH:

My turn?

MODERATOR:

Yes, sir.

BUSH:

Forget the journalists. He proposed more than Walter Mondale and Michael Dukakis combined. It's a big spender. He ought to be proud of it it's part of his record. We have a different philo sophy. If you pay taxes you ought to get tax relief. The vice president believes only the right people ought to get tax relief. I don't think that's the role of the president to pick you're right and you're not right. If you're going to have tax relief everybody ought to get it and therefore wealthy people are going to get it. But the top 1% will end up paying one-third of the taxes in America and they get one-fifth of the benefits. And that's because we structured the plan so that 6 million additional American families pay no taxes. If you're a family of four making $50,000 in Missouri you get a 50% cut in your federal income taxes. What I've done is set priorities and funded them. There's extra money. I believe the people who pay the bills ought to get some money back. It's a differ ence of opinion. He wants to grow the government and I trust you with your own money. I wish we could spend an hour talking about trusting people. It's the right position to take.

MODERATOR:

Hold on one second. The governor just reversed the thing. What do you say specifically to what the vice president said tonight he said it many, imtimes that your tax cut benefits the top 1% of the wealthiest Americans.

BUSH:

Of course it does. If you pay taxes you are going to get a benefit. People who pay taxes will get tax relief.

MODERATOR:

Why should they?

BUSH:

Let me finish. Under my plan the wealthy people pay 62% of the taxes today. Afterwards they pay 64%. This is a fair plan. You know why? Because the tax code is unfair for people at the bottom end of the economi c ladder. If you're a single mother making $22,000 a year today and you're trying to raise two children, for every additional dollar you earn you pay a higher marginal rate on that somebody making $200,000 and that's not right. I want to do something about that.

MODERATOR:

Vice President Gore?

GORE:

This isn't about Governor Bush and it's not about me. It's about you. I want to come back to something I said before. If you want somebody who believes that we were better off eight years ago than we are now and that we ought to go back to the kind of policies that we had back then, emphasizing tax cuts mainly for the wealthy here is your man. If you want somebody who will fight for you and who will fight to have middle-class tax cuts, then I am your man. I want to be. Now, I d oubt anybody here makes more than $330,000 a year. I won't ask you but if you do you're in the top 1%.

MODERATOR:

It would be a violation of the rules?

GORE:

I'm not going to ask them. But if everyone here in this audience was dead on in the middle of the middle-class, then the tax cuts for every single one of you all added up would be less than the tax cut his plan would give to just one member of that top wealthiest 1%. Now you judge for yourselves whether or not that's fair.

MODERATOR:

Quick and then we're moving on.

BUSH:

50 million Americans get no tax relief under his plan. You may not be one of them you're just not one of the right people. And secondly we've had enough fighting. It's time to unite. You talk about eight years. They haven't gotten anything done on Medicare, Social Security, patient's bill of rights.

MODERATOR:

All right.

BUSH:

Time to get something done.

GORE:

I have to answer that, Jim. Medicare -- I cast the tie-breaking vote to add 26 years to the life of Medicare. It was due to go bankrupt in 1999 and that 50 million figure again the newspapers I said -- you said forget the journalists but they are the keepers of the score card and whether or not you're using facts that aren't right. And that fact is just not right.

MODERATOR:

Speaking of keepers of the score card that's what I'm trying to do here Mr. Vice President and Governor Bush. We'll have to move on. There are 12 questions on foreign and military matters and the first one that we're going to ask will be directed to you, Governor Bush and David norwood i s going to ask it. Mr. norwood, where are you? There you are.

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

What would you make -- what would make you the best candidate in office during the Middle East crisis?

BUSH:

I've been a leader. Been a person who has to set a clear vision and convince people to follow. I have a strategy for the Middle East. Our nation now needs to speak with one voice during this time and I applaud the president for working hard to diffuse tensions. Our nation needs to be credible and strong. When we say we're somebody's friend, everybody has got to believe it. Israel is our friend and we'll stand by Israel. We need to reach out to modern Arab nations as well. To build coalitions to keep the peace. I also need -- the next leader needs to be patient. You can't put the Middle East peace process on our t imetable. It has to be on the timetable of the people that we're trying to bring to the peace table. We can't dictate the terms of peace. It means we have to be steady. Can't worry about polls or focus groups. Got to have a clear vision. That's what a leader does. Leader also understands that the United States must be strong to keep the peace. Saddam Hussein still is a threat in the Middle East. Our coalition against Saddam is unraveling. Sanctions are loosened. The man who may be developing weapons of mass destruct shuns. We don't know, inspectors aren't in. To answer your question requires a clear vision, a willingness to stand by our friends and the credibility for people both friend and foe to understand when America says something we mean it.

MODERATOR:

Vice President Gore?

GORE:

I see a future when the world is at peace with the United States of America promoting the values of democracy and human rights and freedom all around the world. Even in Iran they have had an election that began to bring about some change. We stand for those values and we have to be willing to assert them. Right now our military is the strongest in the entire history of the world. I will -- I pledge to you I will do whatever is necessary to make sure that it stays that way. Now, what can I bring to that challenge? When I was a young man, my father was a Senator opposed to the Vietnam war. When I graduated from college, there were plenty of fancy was of getting out and being a part of that. I volunteered and I went to Vietnam. I didn't do the most or run the greatest risk by a long shot but I learned what it was like to be an enlist eds man in the United States Army. In the Congress, in the house ouse of Representatives I served on the house intelligence committee and I worked hard to learn the subject of nuclear arms control and how we can diffuse these tensions and deal with non-proliferation and deal with the problems of terrorism and the new weapons of mass destruction. We'll face serious new challenges in the next four years. I've worked on that long and hard. When I went to the United States Senate I asked for an assignment to the armed rmed Services Committee. And while I was there I worked on a bipartisan basis as I did in the house. I worked with former President Reagan on the modernization of our strategic weapons. I supported Governor Bush's dad in the Persia n Gulf War resolution. For the last eight years I've served on the national security council. Can I say one other thing sir?

MODERATOR:

No, sir. The next question is to you. It's a related question that will be asked by Kenneth Allen. Mr. Allen?

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

I think he gets a -- I'm sorry, you're right, go ahead.

MODERATOR:

Mr. Allen, right there.

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

Our military forces today are stretched thinner and doing more than they have ever done before during peacetime. I would like to know what you are -- I think we would all like to know what you as president would do to ensure proper resourcing for the can current mission or more selectively choosing the time and place our forces will be used around the world.

GORE:

Thank you, sir. Just to fini sh briefly I started to say for the last eight years I've been on the national security council. Last week I suspended campaigning for two days or parts of two days to go back and participate in the meetings that charted the president's summit meeting that he just returned from earlier today. And our team of -- our country east team over there did a great job. It's a difficult situation. The United States has to be strong in order to make sure that we can help promote peace and security and stability. And that means keeping our military strong. Now, I said earlier that we are the strongest military, but we need to continue improving readiness and making sure that our military personnel are adequately paid and that the combination of their pain and pay and benefits and retirements as veterans is comparable to the stiff competition that's coming in this strong economy from the private sector. I have supported the largest pay raise in many a year and I support another one now. I also support modernization of our strategic and tactical weaponry. The governor has proposed skipping a generation of technology. I think that would be a mistake because I think one of the ways we've been able to be so successful in Kosovo and Bosnia and Haiti and in other places is by having the technological edge. We won that conflict in Kosovo without losing a single human life in combat, a single American life in combat. Now, readiness. The trends before we -- before I got my current job were on the decline, the number of divisions were reduced. I argued that we should reverse that trend and tak e it back up and I'm happy to tell you that we have. Now, in my budget for the next ten years I propose $100 billion for this purpose. The governor proposes $45 billion. I propose more than twice as much because I think it's needed.

MODERATOR:

Governor Bush two minutes.

BUSH:

If this were a spending contest I would come in second. I'm not going to grow the size of the federal government like he is. Your question was deployment. It must be in the national interests, must be in our vital interests whether we ever send troops. The mission must be clear. Soldiers must understand why we're going. The force must be strong enough so that the mission can be accomplished and the exit strategy needs to be well-defined. I'm concerned that we're overdeployed around the world. See, I think t he mission has somewhat become fuzzy. Should I be fortunate enough to earn your confidence, the mission of the United States military will be to be prepared and ready to fight and win war. And therefore prevent war from happening in the first place. There may be some moments when we use our troops as peacekeepers, but not often. The vice president mentioned my view of long-term for the military. I want to make sure the equipment for our military is the best it can possibly be, of course. We have an opportunity to use our research and development capacities, great technology of the United States to make our military lighter, harder to find, more lethal. We have an opportunity really if you think about it if we're smart and have got a stage I can vision and a leader who understands strategic p lanning to make sure that we change the terms of the battlefield of the future so we can keep the peace. This is a peaceful nation and I intend to keep the peace. Spending money is one thing. But spending money without a strategic plan can oftentimes be wasted. I'll ask the Secretary of Defense to develop a plan so we are sure we're not spending our money on political projects but on projects to make sure our soldiers are well paid, well-housed and have the best equipment in the world.

MODERATOR:

Another kind of gun question. It will be asked by Robert LUTZ. Mr. LUTZ?

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

Governor Bush, we would just like to know what is your opposition to the Brady handgun bill.

BUSH:

I'm sorry I didn't here that.

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

We would like to know if you object to the braid owe handgun bill. The national rifle association says that are you elected they will be working out of your office.

BUSH:

I don't think the national rifle association ran that ad. Let me just tell you my position on guns in general, sir.

MODERATOR:

I'm not sure he's finished with his question.

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

That kind of bothers me when I see an ad like that. Explain it to me.

BUSH:

I don't think I ran the ad. I think somebody who doesn't want me to be president might have run that ad. I think it been one of my opponent's ads. Here is what I believe, sir. I believe law-abiding citizens ought to be able to protect themselves and their families. I believe we ought to keep guns out of the hands of people that shouldn't have them. That's why I'm fo r trigger locks, that makes sense. Matter of fact we distributed free trigger locks in the State of Texas so people can put them on their guns to make them more safe. Raise the age at which juveniles can have a gun. But I also believe strongly that we need to enforce laws on the books that the best way to make sure that we keep our society safe and secure is to hold people accountable for breaking the law. If we catch somebody illegally selling a gun there needs to be a consequence. If we catch somebody illegal le using a gun there needs to be a consequence. Enforcement of law and the federal government can help. There tl* is a program where we focus federal taxpayers money and federal prosecutors and went after people who were illegally using guns. To me that's how you make society the s afest it can be. So yeah sometimes I agree with some of these groups in Washington and sometimes I don't. I'm a pretty independent thinker. One thing I'm for is a safe society. And I'm foreign forcing laws on the books and that's what is going to happen should I earn your confidence.

MODERATOR:

Vice President Gore.

GORE:

It was not one of my ads, either, governor. But I am familiar with the statement and it was made by one of the top ranking officials of that organization. Let me tell you my position. I think that some common sense gun safety measures are certainly needed with the flood of cheap handguns that have sometimes been working their way into the hands of the wrong people. But all of my proposals are folks on that problem, gun safety. None of my proposals would have any effect on hunters, sports man, people who use rifles. They're aimed at the real problem. Let's make our schools safe, let's make our neighborhoods safe. Let's have a three-day waiting period, cooling off so we can have a background check to make sure that criminals and people who really shouldn't have guns don't get them. But I would like to use my remaining time on this exchange, Jim, to respond to an exchange that took place just a moment ago. A couple of times the governor has said that I am for a bigger government. Governor, I'm not. Let me tell you what the record shows. For the last eight years I have had the challenge of running the streamlining program called reinventing government. If there are any federal employees in this group you know what that means. The federal governm ent has been reduced in size by more than 300,000 people. And it's now the smallest number that we have had since the -- smallest in size since John Kennedy's administration. During the last five years, Texas's government has gone up in size. Federal government has gone down, Texas's government has gone up. Now, my plan for the future, I see a time when we have smaller, smarter government where you don't have to wait in line because you can get services online cheaper, better, faster. We can do that.

MODERATOR:

Steve LUKER has a question for Vice President Gore. Mr. LUKER. There you are.

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

Vice President Gore. The family farms are disappearing and having a hard time even in the current positive economic environment. What steps would you or your administration take on agricultural policy developments to protect the family farms for the multi-functional service they perform?

GORE:

We've got a bumper crop this year. But that is the good news. You know what the bad news is that follows on that. The prices are low. In the last several years, the so-called freedom to farm law has in my view been mostly a failure. I want to change many of its provisions. Now, many here who are not involved in farming don't follow this so just forgive me. Because the 2% of the country that is involved in farming is important because the rest of us wouldn't eat except for them. And you guys have been having a hard time and I want to fight for you. I want to change those provisions. I want to restore a meaningful safety net. And I think that you pointed the way in your comments because when you say there are multiple things to accomplish about farmers you're specifically including conservation and protection of the environment and yes farmers are the first environmentalists. When they decide not to plow a field vulnerable to soil erosion, that may cost them a little money but it helps the environment. I think we ought to have an expanded conservation reserve program. I think the environmental benefits that come from sound management of the land ought to represent a new way for farmers to get some income that will enable them -- enable you to make sensible choices in crop rotation and when you leave the land FALLOW and the rest. I'll go beyond that and say we need more focus on rural economic development programs. I see a time when the Internet-based activities are more available in the rural areas and where the extra source of income that farm families used to have from shoe factories is replaced by an extra source of income from working in the information economy. So we need to do a lot of things but we ought to start with a better safety net.

MODERATOR:

Governor Bush, two minutes.

BUSH:

I would like our farmers feeding the world. We're the best producers in the world and I want the farmers feeding the world. We need to open up markets, exports are down and every time an export number goes down, it hurts the farmer. I want the next president to have fast track negotiating authority to open up markets around the world with the best and most efficient farmers. I don't want to use food as a diplomatic weapon from this point forwar d. We shouldn't be using food. It hurts the farmers. Not the right thing to do. I'm for value-added processing. We need to more work on value-added processing. I presume your a farmer. Take -- value added processing is important. I'm for research and development. Spending research and development money so that we can use our technological base to figure out new uses for farm products. I'm for getting rid of the death tax, completely getting rid of it. One reason family farmers are forced to sell early is the death tax. It it's a bad tax. It's a tax that taxes people twice. It penalizes the family farmer. Should I be fortunate enough to earn your vote I also understand that farming is a part of our national security. I'm from a big farm state with the second biggest state farming state in the country. And I hear from my farmers and friends all the time. Vice president is right, by the way, everyday is earth day if you own the land. I like the policies that will encourage farmers to put set aside land as well for conservation purposes. Thank you.

MODERATOR:

A quick thing on the inheritance tax. There is a difference between the two of you on this. Vice President Gore?

GORE:

I'm for a massive reform of the estate tax or the death tax. And under the plan that I've proposed, 80% of all family farms will be completely exempt ss estate tax. And the vast majority of all family businesses would be completely exempt and all the other would have sharply reduced. 80% -- the problem with completely eliminating it goes back to the wealthiest 1%. The amount of money t hat has to be raised in taxes for middle-class families to make up for completely eliminating that on the very wealthiest, the billion airs, that would be an extra heavy burden on middle-class families. Let's do it for most all but not completely eliminate it for the very top.

MODERATOR:

What's the case for doing that, governor?

BUSH:

Eliminating the death tax because people shouldn't be taxed twice on their assets. It's either unfair for some or all. If you're from Washington you want to pick and choose winners. I don't think that's the role of the president. If you're going to have tax relief everybody benefits. Secondly I think your lan. A lots of fine print in your plan. I'm not sure 80% of the people get the death tax. I know this 100% will get it if I'm the president. I just don't think it's fair to tax people's assets twice regardless of your status. It's a fairness issue. An issue of principle, not politics.

MODERATOR:

New issue and the question will be asked by Joyce KLEMER of Governor Bush.

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

I'm very concerned about the moreality of our country now. TV, movies, the music that our children are, you know, barraged with every day. I want to know if there's anything that can be worked out with the -- Hollywood or whoever to help get rid of some of this bad language and whatever, you know. It's just bringing the country down and our children are very important to us and we're concerned about their education at school. We should be concerned about their education at home, also. Thank you.

BUSH:

Appreciate that question. Laura and I are proud parents of teenage girls, twin daughter and I know what you're saying. Government ought to stand on the side of parents. Parents are teaching their children right from wrong and the message oftentimes gets undermined by the popular culture. You bet there's things that government can do. We can work with the entertainment industry to provide family hour. We can have filters on Internets where public money is spent. There ought to be filters in public libraries and filters in public schools so if kids get on the Internet there won't be pornography or violence coming up. I think we need character education in our schools. I know that doesn't directly talk about Hollywood but it does reinforce the values you're teaching. Greatly expand that funding so the public schools will teach children values, values which have stood the test of time. There's afterschool money available. I think that afterschool money ought to be available for faith-based programs. And charitable programs that exist because somebody has heard the call to love a neighbor like you want to be loved yourself. That will help reinforce the values that parents teach at home as well. This is a great land and one of the reasons why is because we're free. I don't support censorship. But I do believe that we ought to talk plainly to the Hollywood MOGULS and people who produce this stuff and explain the consequences. I think we need to have rating systems that are clear. I happen to like the idea of having technology for the TV for parents to use that you can tune out the programs you don't want in your house. I'll remind mothers and dads the bet weapon is the off/on button and paying attention to your children and eating dinner with them and being -- I'm sorry: GORE:

My turn.

MODERATOR:

Vice President Gore.

GORE:

I care a lot about this. Not just movies, television, video games, music, the Internet. Parents now feel like you have to compete with the mass culture in order to raise your kids with the values that you want them to have. Tipper and I have four children. And God bless them every one of them decided on their own to come here this evening. I don't want to embarrass our oldest daughter. She and her husband made us grandparents almost a year ago and yet if she'll forgive me, when she was little, she brought a record home that had some awful lyrics in it and Tipper hit the ceiling. And that launched a campaign to try to get the record companies to put ratings -- warning labels for parents. And I'm so proud of what she accomplished in getting them on there. I've been involved myself in negotiating and helping to move along the negotiations with the Internet service providers to get a parents protection page every time 95% of the pages come up. And a feature that allows parents to automatically check with one click what sites your kids have visited lately. Some parents are worried about those filters that you will have to ask your kids how to put them on there. If you can check up on them that's real power. And recently the Federal Trade Commission pointed out that some of these entertainment companies have warned parents that the mater ial is inappropriate for children and then they've turned around behind the backs of the parents and advertised that material directly to children. That's an outrage. Joe Lieberman and I gave them sticks months to clean up their act. If they don't do it we'll ask for tougher authority in the hands of the FTC on the false and deceptive advertising. I tell you this. I want to do something about this. Respect the first amendment but I will do something to help you raise your kids without that garbage.

MODERATOR:

All right. Vice President Gore the next question is for you and it will be asked by Steven KUSSMAN. Where are you, sir? Right behind me as well.

GORE:

Right next to the left.

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

It seems when we hear of issues about this campaign it's usually Medic are, Social Security or prescription drugs. As a college professor I hear a lot of apathy amongst young people who feel that there are no issues directed to them. And they don't plan to vote. How do you address that?

GORE:

We have to change it. I spend a good deal of time talking to young people and in my standard speech on the stump I usually end my speech by saying I want to ask you for something and I want to direct it especially to the young people in the audience. And I want to tell you what I tell them. Sometimes people who are very idealistic and have great dreams as young people do, are apt to stay at arm's length from the political process because they think their good hearts might be brittle and if they invest their hopes and allow themselves to believe, then they're going to be let down and disappointed. But thank goodness we've always had enough people who have been willing to every generation to push past the fear of a broken heart and become deeply involved in forming a more perfect union. We're America and we believe in our future and we know we have the ability to shape our future. Now, we've got to address one of the biggest threats to our democracy. And that is the current campaign financing system. I know they say it doesn't rank anywhere on the polls. I don't believe that is a fair measure. I'm telling you, I will make it the -- I will make the McCain Feingold campaign finance reform bill the very first measure that I send to the Congress as president. Governor Bush opposes it. I wish that he would consider changing his mind on that. Because I think that t he special interests have too much power and we need to give our democracy back to the American people. Let me tell you why. Those issues you mentioned, Social Security, prescription drugs, the big drug companies are against the prescription drug proposal that I've made. The HMO's are against the patient's right bill the DINGLE-nor wood bill. The big oil companies are against the measures to get more energy independence and renewable fuel. They ought to have their voices heard but they shouldn't have a big meg phone that drowns out the American people. We need campaign finance reform and we need to shoot straight with young and old alike and tell them what the real choices are and we can renew and rekindle the American spirit and make our future what our founders dreamed it could be. We can.

MODERATOR:

Governor Bush, two minutes.

BUSH:

Tell you what I hear. A lot of people are sick and tired of the bitterness in Washington, D.C. and they don't want any part of politics. They look at Washington and see people pointing fingers and casting blame and saying one thing and doing another. There's a lot of young folks saying why do I want to be involved with this mess? And what I think needs to happen in order to encourage the young to become involved is to shoot straight, is to set aside the partisan differences and set an agenda that will make sense. Medicare I know you talked about it but Medicare is relevant for all of us young and old alike. We better get it right now. Tax reform is relevant for old and young alike. I don't think it's the issues that turn kids off. I think it's the tone. I think it's the attitude. I think it's a cynicism in Washington and it doesn't have to be that way. Before I decided to run I had to resolve two issues in my mind. One, could our family endure all this business. And I came to the conclusion that our love was strong enough to be able to do it. The other one was could the add administration change the tone in Washington, D.C. And I believe the answer is yes, otherwise I wouldn't be asking for your vote. That's what happened in Texas. We worked together. There is a man here in this audience that is the chairman of the health committee. He came here for a reason to out the our report on health in Texas. He's a Democrat. I didn't care whether he was a Republican or Democrat. What I cared about is could we work together. Finally sir to answer your question. You need somebody in office who will tell the truth. That's the best way to get people back in the system.

MODERATOR:

Governor Bush, Norma Kirby has the next question and it's for you. Where are you?

BUSH:

Hi, Norma.

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

How are your administration address diversity, inclusiveness and what role will affirmative action play in your overall plan?

BUSH:

I've had a record of bringing people from all walks of life into my administration and my administration is better off for it in Texas. I'm going to find people that want to serve their country. But I want a diverse administration, I think it's important. I've worked hard in the State of Texas to make sure our institutions reflect the state with good, s mart policy. Policy that rejects quotas. They tend to Pitt one group of people against another. It doesn't good for America. It's not what America is all about. But policies that give people a helping hand, so they can help themselves. For example in our State of Texas I worked with the legislature, both Republicans and Democrats to pass a law that say if you come in in the top 10% of your high school class you're automatically admitted to one of our higher institutions of learning. College. And as a result, our universities are now more diverse. It was a smart thing to do is what I called it, I labeled it affirmative access. I think the contracting business in government can help. Not with quotas but help meet a goal of ownership of small businesses, for example. The contracts need to be sma ller, the agencies need to be -- need to recruit and to work hard to find people to bid on the state contracts. I think we can do that in a way that represents what America is all about, which is equal opportunity and an opportunity for people to realize their potential so to answer your question, I support I guess the way to put it is affirmative access. I'll have an administration that will make you proud. Thank you.

MODERATOR:

Vice President Gore?

GORE:

I believe in this goal and effort with all my heart. I believe that our future as a nation depends upon whether or not we can break down these barriers that have been used to pit group against group and bring our people together. How do you do it? Well, you establish respect for differences. You don't ignore differences. It's all t oo easy for somebody in the majority in the population to say we're just all the same without an understanding of the different life experience that you've had, that others have had. Once you have that understanding and mutual respect we can transcend the differences and embrace the highest common denominate or of the American spirit. I don't know what affirmative access means. I do know what affirmative action means. I know the governor is against it and I know that I'm for it. I know what a hate crime statute pending at the national level is all about in the aftermath of James bid's death. I'm for that law, the governor is against it. I know what it means to have a commitment to diversity. I am part of an administration that has the finest record on diversity and incidentally an excellent -- I think our success over the last eight years has not been in spite of diversity but because of it because we're able to draw on the wisdom and experience from different parts of the society that haven't been tapped in the same way before. And incidentally. Mel Carnahan in Missouri had the finest record of diversity in any governor in the entire history of the State of Missouri and I want to honor that among his other achievements here. Now, I just believe that what we have to do is enforce the civil rights laws. I'm against quotas. This is with all due respect governor that's a red herring. Affirmative action -- they're against the American way. Affirmative action means you take extra steps to acknowledge the history of discrimination and injustice and prejudice and bring all people int o the American dream because it helps everybody, not just those who are directly benefitting.

MODERATOR:

Governor, are you opposed to affirmative action?

BUSH:

If affirmative action means quotas I'm against it. If it means what I'm for, then I'm for it. You heard what I was for. He keeps saying I'm against things. You heard what I was for and that's what I support.

MODERATOR:

Mr. Vice President, you heard what he said.

BUSH:

He said if affirmative actions means quotas he's against it. It doesn't mean for it are you for it without quota's BUSH:

I'm for what I just described for the lady.

GORE:

Are you for what the Supreme Court says is a constitutional way of having affirmative action?

MODERATOR:

Let's go on to another -- BUSH:

It speaks for the fa ct that there are certain rules in this we all agree to but evidently rules don't mean anything.

MODERATOR:

The question is for you, Vice President Gore and Lisa key will ask it. Where are you? There we go, sorry.

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

How will your tax proposals affect me as a middle-class, 34-year-old single person with no dependents?

GORE:

If you make less than $60,000 a year and you decide to invest $1,000 in a savings account, you'll get a tax credit which means in essence that the federal government will match your $1,000 with another $1,000. If you make less than $30,000 a year and you put $500 in a savings account, the federal government will match it with $1500. If you make more than $60,000 and up to 100 you'll get a match but not as generous. You'll get an access to l ife-long learning and education, help with tuition if you want to get a new skill or training. If you want to purchase health insurance, you will get help with that. If you want to participate in some of the dynamic changes that are going on in our country, you will get specific help in doing that. If you are part of the -- of the bottom 20% or so of wage earners then you will get an expanded earned income tax credit. Now, the tax relief that I propose is directed specifically at middle-income individuals and families. And if you have a -- if you have an elderly parent or grandparent who needs long-term care, then you will get help with that. $3,000 tax credit to help your expenses in taking care of a loved one who needs long-term care.

MODERATOR:

Governor Bush?

BUSH:

Let me j ust say the first -- this business about the entitlement he tried to describe about savings, matching saichtion here and matching savings there if it's fully funded will cost a lot of money, you will get a tax refund in my plan. You won't be targeted in or out. Everybody pays taxes is going to get tax relief. If you take care of an elderly person in your home you'll get the increased. What about Medicare? You get a plan that will include prescription drugs, a plan that will give you options. Now, I hope people understand that Medicare today is important, but it doesn't keep up with the new medicines. If you're a Medicare person, on Medicare you don't get the new procedures. You're stuck in a time warp in many ways. It will be a modern Medicare system that trusts you to make a variety of o ptions for you. You'll live in a peaceful world. It will be a world of peace because we're going to have a clear sight of foreign policy based upon a strong military and a mission that stands by our friends. A mission that doesn't try to be all things to all people. A judicious use of the military will keep the peace. A -- an educated child is one much more likely to be hopeful and optimistic. You'll be in a world in which fits into my philosophy. The harder you work, the more you can keep. It's the American way. Government shouldn't be a heavy hand. It's what the federal government does to you. It should be a helping hand and tax relief and the proposals I just described should be a good helping hand.

MODERATOR:

Governor, next question is for you and Leo Anderson will ask it.

Mr. Anderson. You want a Mike?

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

In one of the last debates held on the subject of capital punishment came in and your response to the question you seem overly joyed and proud that Texas leads the execution of prisoners. Did I misread your response and are you proud that Texas is number one in executions?

BUSH:

No, I'm not proud of that. The death penalty is a very serious business, Leo. It's an issue that good people obviously disagree on. I take my job seriously. And if you think I was proud of it I think you misread me, I do. I was sworn to uphold the laws of my state during the course of the campaign in 1994 I was asked do you support the death penalty. I said I did if administered fairly and justly because I believe it saves lives, Leo, I do. If it's administered swiftly, justly and fairly it saves lives. One of the things that happens when you're a governor, at least oftentimes you have to make tough decisions. You can't let the public persuasion sway you because the job is to enforce the law. And that's what I did, sir. There have been some tough cases come across my desk. Some of the hardest moments since I've been the governor of the State of Texas is to deal with those cases. But my job is to ask two questions, sir. Is the person guilty of the crime? And did the person have full access to the courts of law? And I can tell you looking at you right now in all cases those answers were affirmative. I'm not proud of any record. I'm proud of the fact that violent crime is down in the State of Texas. I'm proud of the fact that we hold people accountable but I'm not proud of any record, sir, I'm not.

MODERATOR:

Vice President Gore?

GORE:

I support the death penalty. I think that it has to be add administered not only fairly with attention to things like DNA evidence which I think should be used in all capital cases, but also with very careful attention if, for example, somebody confesses to the crime and somebody is waiting on death row, there has to be alertness to say wait a minute, have we got the wrong guy. If the wrong guy is put to death that's a double tragedy not only has an innocent person been executed but the real perp tray tore of the crime has not been held accountable for it and in some cases may still be at large. But I support the death penalty in the most heinous cases.

MODE RATOR:

Do both of you believe the death penalty actually detears crime?

BUSH:

I do. It's the only reason to be for it. I don't think you should support the death penalty to seek revenge. I don't think that's right. I think the reason to support the death penalty is because it saves other people's lives.

GORE:

I think sit a deterrent. It's a controversial view but I believe it's a deterrent.

MODERATOR:

Next question is for you, Vice President Gore. Thomas fisher will ask it. Mr. fisher?

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:

Yes. My 6th grade class at St. Claire's school wanted to ask all the promises you guys are making and all the pledges, will you keep them when you're in office? [LAUGHTER]

GORE:

Yes. [LAUGHTER] I am a person who keeps promises. And you know we've he ard a lot about -- from the governor about not much being done in the last eight years, as if the promises that I made eight years ago have not been kept. I think the record shows otherwise. We have gone from the biggest deficits eight years ago to the biggest surpluses in history today. Instead of high unemployment, we now have the lowest African-American unemployment, the lowest Latino unemployment ever measured. New jobs, low unemployment nationally. Instead of ballooning the debt and mult multiplying it four times over we've seen it go down. Here are some promises I will make to you now. I'll balance the budget every year. I will pay down the debt every year. I will give middle-class Americans tax cuts, meaningful ones. And I will invest in education, health care, protecting the en environment and retirement security. We both made promises in this campaign. I promise you I will keep mine. Let me tell you about one of the governor's. He has promised a trillion dollars out of the Social Security trust fund for young working adults to invest and save on their own but he's promised seniors that their Social Security benefits will not be cut and he's promised the same trillion dollars to them so this is a show me state, reminds me of the line from the movie, show me the money. Which one of those promises will be keep and which will you break, governor?

MODERATOR:

Governor Bush.

BUSH:

Thank you for your question. [LAUGHTER] There's an old high school debating trick which is to answer something and then attack your opponent at the end. You asked about pro mises. You were promised that Medicare would be reformed. And that Social Security would be reformed. You were promised a middle-class tax cut in 1992. It didn't happen. Too much bitterness in Washington. There's too much wrangling. It's time to have a fresh start. One of the reasons I was successful as the governor of Texas is because I didn't try to be all things to all people. When I campaigned in a race a lot of folks didn't think I could win, including by the way my mother. [LAUGHTER] I said I'd do four things. Tort reform, education reform, welfare reform and juvenile justice reform. And I won and I had the will of the people of my state behind me. I brought folks together to get it done and that's what we need I think in this election. To me that's what it's all about. I'm su re your 6th grade kids and are saying these guys will say anything to get elected. There's a record and I hope that's what people look at. One of my promises is going to be Social Security reform and you bet we need to take a trillion dollars out of that 2.4 trillion surplus. Remember, Social Security revenue exceeds expenses up until 2015. People will get paid. But if you're a younger worker, if you're younger, you better hope this country thinks differently or you will be faced with huge payroll taxes, reduced benefits and you bet we'll take a trillion dollars of your own money and let you invest it under safe guidelines so you get a better rate of return on the money than the 2% the government gets for you today. It will require to bring both Republicans and Democrats together to get it done. Th at's what it requires. There was a chance to get this done. It was bipartisan approach but it's been rejected. I'm going to bring them together.

MODERATOR:

Both of you on this subject. There are other questions that also go to this skepticism, not necessarily about you, but all people in politics. Why is that?

GORE:

Well, first of all, Jim, I would like to respond to what the governor just said. Because the trillion dollars that has been promised to young people has also been promised to older people. And you cannot keep both promises. If you're in your mid-40's under the governor's plan Social Security will be bankrupt by the time you retire, if he takes it out of the Social Security trust fund. Under my plan it will be -- its sol convenient si will be extended until your 100.

Now that is the difference. And the governor may not want to answer that question, he may want to call it a high school debating trick but this election isn't about debating trick it's about your future. The reason -- he says it gets 2%. It's not a bank account that just pays back money that's invested. It is also used to give your mothers and fathers the Social Security checks that they live on. If you take a trillion dollars out of that Social Security trust fund, how are the checks going to be -- how are you going to keep faith with the seniors? Let me come directly to your question.

MODERATOR:

We have to go to the closing statements and BUSH:

Can I answer that? One reason people are skeptical is because people don't answer the question they're asked. It comes out of the surplus. There 's a difference of opinion. I want workers to have their own assets. It's who you trust, government or people.

MODERATOR:

All right now we're going to go to closing statements. Vice President Gore, you're first.

GORE:

Thank you very much Jim and I'll begin my answering your last question. I believe that a lot of people are skeptical about people in politics today because we have seen a time of great challenge for our country. Since the assassination of our best leaders in the 60's, since the Vietnam war and water gate and because we need campaign finance reform. I would like to tell you something about me. I keep my word. I have kept the faith. I've kept the faith with my country. I volunteered for the army. I served in Vietnam. I kept the faith with my family. Tippe r and I have been married for 30 years. We have devoted ourselves to our children and now our nearly one-and-a-half-year-old grandson. I've kept the faith with our country. Nine times I have raised my hand to take an oath to the Constitution and I have never violated that oath. I have not spent the last quarter century in pursuit of personal wealth. I have spent the last quarter century fighting for middle-class working men and women in the United States of America. I believe very deeply that you have to be willing to stand up and fight no matter what powerful forces might be on the other side. If you want somebody who is willing to fight for you, I am asking for your support and your vote and yes your confidence and your willingness to believe that we can do the right thing in Ameri ca. And be the better for it. We've made some progress during the last eight years. We have seen the strongest economy in the history of the United States. Lower crime rates for eight years in a row. Highest private homeownership ever but I'm make you one promise here. You ain't seen nothing yet. And I will keep that promise.

MODERATOR:

Governor Bush, two minutes.

BUSH:

Jim, I want to thank you and thank the folks here at Washington University and the vice president. Appreciate the chance to have a good honest dialogue about our differences of opinion. I think after three debates the good people of this country understand there street a difference of opinion. The difference between big federal government and somebody that is coming from outside of Washington who will t rust individuals. I have an agenda I want to get done for the country. An agenda that says we're going to reform Medicare to make sure seniors have prescription drugs and to give seniors different options from which they can choose. An agenda that says we'll listen to the young voices in Social Security and think differently about making sure we have a system beautiful fill the promise to the seniors in America. A promise made will be a promise kept should I be fortunate enough to become your presidents. I want to have the military keeping the piece. The public school system in America keeps its promise so not one child is left behind. After setting priorities, I want to give some of your money back. I don't think the surplus is the government's money. I think it's the people's money. I do n't think the surplus exists because of the ingee knew tie and hard work. Federal government it exists because of the hard work of the American people and you need some of this surplus. I look forward to the final weeks of this campaign. I'm asking for your vote. For those of you for me, thanks for your help. For those of you for my opponent, please only vote once. [LAUGHTER] But for those who have not made up their minds I would like to conclude by this promise. Should I be fortunate to become your president when I put my hand on the Bible I'll swear to uphold the laws of the land but swear to uphold the honor and dignity to the office which I've been elected so help me God. Thank you very much.

MODERATOR:

A closing piece of business before we go. The debate commission wants reaction to the th ree kinds of formats used in the debates this year and you may register an opinion as their website WWW.debates.ORG. Thank you and good night from St. Louis. [APPLAUSE]